bowlrig
Just A Bowler
Hi Liz,
Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that with just over two weeks till Country Cup you have been told your team can not bowl?
Rob
Are females allowed to compete with the men in Country Cup?
- Thread starter wchester
- Start date
Hi Liz,
Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that with just over two weeks till Country Cup you have been told your team can not bowl?
Rob
Freddo
Old Timer
I think you guys are getting off topic on this thread..... How about bringing it to the Country Cup thread ?????
Maybe if a few of the bowlers and committee persons that were in Mildura in 2001 I think (Old Age is catching up Quick) at the general meeting there were several proposals put forward for change but quite a few Associations wanted no change, once again any sugestion of change was shot down.
There should be a copy of the minutes floating around somewhere with all of the proposed changes.
Once again lets take this debate to the Country Cup thread..
Regards
Graham.
Maybe if a few of the bowlers and committee persons that were in Mildura in 2001 I think (Old Age is catching up Quick) at the general meeting there were several proposals put forward for change but quite a few Associations wanted no change, once again any sugestion of change was shot down.
There should be a copy of the minutes floating around somewhere with all of the proposed changes.
Once again lets take this debate to the Country Cup thread..
Regards
Graham.
grumpie
Active Member
From what we are told if Sale does not have the centre sanctioned by the 1st of March we will not be allowed to paticipate. Remembering that the doors close on the 31st March.
I can see why the sanction should and should not be paid for the centre. Would you pay for 12 months if you knew you were closing 3 months into the year. Then reopening in 12 months time
All Sale cup team members are sanctioned!!!!!!!!
Keep in mind what happened to Bairnsdale.
Closed before senior shield never evan looking like reopening yet allowed to bowl.
Morwell closed for 12 months to relocate and bowlers were allowed to travel to Dandenong for league once a month and allowed to bowl Ccup etc.
Now Sale. Very possible Ccup Maybe Senior shield beyond that probibly not.
Gunther.
jEssicA-l0uisE
New Member
So it is a case of who not what again.
I am sure that if you contacted TBA and explained the situation they would either do it on a pro-rata basis or a transfer basis.
Also if this is the case in full then once again very petty and back to the I can do it now but you can not do it later syndrome.
Rob
I am sure that if you contacted TBA and explained the situation they would either do it on a pro-rata basis or a transfer basis.
Also if this is the case in full then once again very petty and back to the I can do it now but you can not do it later syndrome.
Rob
Straight_kut
Team CHOKER
grumpie
Active Member
Yes Graham you are right and this should be under a different thread. However my anger got the better of me regarding our Country Cup team for this year and this year only.
The sale of the land came up after our team was picked and some expenses already incurred last year. Ross could have closed the doors at the end of the year however he organised things so at least the Ccup team had a centre to bowl and practice in untill the tourny. He at least thought of the bowlers.
Whether I agree or not with having to certify the lanes is irrelavant. My issue is that the VCTBA had their meeting just over a week ago and laid down this stipulation less then a month before the tourny. They knew of the situation before this time so why leave it so late.
OK Graham now I have finished and if I still have something else to say (being a woman I probably will) I will do so under the other thread.
Liz
The sale of the land came up after our team was picked and some expenses already incurred last year. Ross could have closed the doors at the end of the year however he organised things so at least the Ccup team had a centre to bowl and practice in untill the tourny. He at least thought of the bowlers.
Whether I agree or not with having to certify the lanes is irrelavant. My issue is that the VCTBA had their meeting just over a week ago and laid down this stipulation less then a month before the tourny. They knew of the situation before this time so why leave it so late.
OK Graham now I have finished and if I still have something else to say (being a woman I probably will) I will do so under the other thread.
Liz
Heres something to think about to get every Country Assoc. a chance to bowl in such a great event.
All the Associations that are not currently involved in CC for a 2nd Division along with the bottom 2 teams on overall in Ballarat.(this is division 2)
The remaining 10 teams shall be known as Division 1 and at the 2009 CC the top 2 teams from division 2 are promoted to Division 1 and the bottom 2 teams from Division 1drop down to division 2.
Division 1 has 10 teams playing 2 rounds, Division2 has 6 teams and play 3 rounds.
All the Associations that are not currently involved in CC for a 2nd Division along with the bottom 2 teams on overall in Ballarat.(this is division 2)
The remaining 10 teams shall be known as Division 1 and at the 2009 CC the top 2 teams from division 2 are promoted to Division 1 and the bottom 2 teams from Division 1drop down to division 2.
Division 1 has 10 teams playing 2 rounds, Division2 has 6 teams and play 3 rounds.
Liz
Surely it is not the VCTBA that should be reminding Associations of the criteria for competing in Country Cup. I presume (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Owners and Sale Associuation would have been aware of the forecoming relocation, and hence temporary closure, before the VCTBA were. Should it not have been up to the Sale Association (if not the Owners) to verify what the criteria is to remain in the tournament, not the VCTBA to remind them.
Nicole
Surely it is not the VCTBA that should be reminding Associations of the criteria for competing in Country Cup. I presume (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Owners and Sale Associuation would have been aware of the forecoming relocation, and hence temporary closure, before the VCTBA were. Should it not have been up to the Sale Association (if not the Owners) to verify what the criteria is to remain in the tournament, not the VCTBA to remind them.
Nicole
grumpie
Active Member
Nicole,
I am on the board of the Sale association. We were informed of the relocation of the bowl just after the new year by the owner.
The rules do not state anywhere about the centre having to be certified and in all honesty in this situation, is it something that you would think of?
Our secretary made some enquiries at the time and nothing was really made clear on where we stood until the meeting the other weekend.
Oh and I said that I wouldn't say anything else under this thread. :shy:
Liz
I am on the board of the Sale association. We were informed of the relocation of the bowl just after the new year by the owner.
The rules do not state anywhere about the centre having to be certified and in all honesty in this situation, is it something that you would think of?
Our secretary made some enquiries at the time and nothing was really made clear on where we stood until the meeting the other weekend.
Oh and I said that I wouldn't say anything else under this thread. :shy:
Liz
Isn't Country Cup made up of various country associations, and why would Centre owners have to notify VCTBA. The Sale Ass seems to have done the right thing and followed correct procedures.
Can someone tell me if the VCTBA has a registered constitution, I know when I was Country TBA Manger for Victoria several years ago, I could not obtain a current copy.
And why all this sh......t stirring are we not trying to unite our sport and get more people involved. Why is that the VCTBA is trying to do the opposite.
Maybe the new CEO of TBA should look into the agenda of the VCTBA and maybe it is their licence that should be revoked.
The people at Sale have worked bloody hard the last few years to field teams in Country Cup, Seniors and Goldpin teams so why all a sudden with only a handfull of weeks to go, has the VCTBA decided that they might ban Sale from competing.....what a real farce this is for our sport. NO wonder centres thru-out the State are losing bowlers.
We as a sport need more bowlers to make our sport grow.
Can someone tell me if the VCTBA has a registered constitution, I know when I was Country TBA Manger for Victoria several years ago, I could not obtain a current copy.
And why all this sh......t stirring are we not trying to unite our sport and get more people involved. Why is that the VCTBA is trying to do the opposite.
Maybe the new CEO of TBA should look into the agenda of the VCTBA and maybe it is their licence that should be revoked.
The people at Sale have worked bloody hard the last few years to field teams in Country Cup, Seniors and Goldpin teams so why all a sudden with only a handfull of weeks to go, has the VCTBA decided that they might ban Sale from competing.....what a real farce this is for our sport. NO wonder centres thru-out the State are losing bowlers.
We as a sport need more bowlers to make our sport grow.
Country Girl
Banned
I'm not really sure what meeting half these people were at, but it certainly wasn't the same meeting I was at. There is no way that VCTBA is trying to ban any of the exisiting associations from Country Cup, in fact it is probably the opposite, with everybody present at that meeting bending over backwards to try and help Sale. Even to the extent where solutions are trying to be worked out for them to bowl Senior Shield.
This is an accredited tournament, therefore, all TBA rules apply. And therefore, all bowlers who are registered with TBA must be bowling in a registered centre. This issue was not raised by the VCTBA! but was raised by a person present at the meeting.
As for a constitution, the VCTBA DOES have one and it is open book to whoever wants to read it. We as an association do all within our means to keep our country tournaments going. And what doesn't surprise me, is all those that whinge never go on committees, attend meetings or put their hand up for anything. They just sit in the background and ***** about what everyone else does. If Country Cup is THAT BAD, how about going to your own associations and giving us all of the solutions!
Denece Jones
This is an accredited tournament, therefore, all TBA rules apply. And therefore, all bowlers who are registered with TBA must be bowling in a registered centre. This issue was not raised by the VCTBA! but was raised by a person present at the meeting.
As for a constitution, the VCTBA DOES have one and it is open book to whoever wants to read it. We as an association do all within our means to keep our country tournaments going. And what doesn't surprise me, is all those that whinge never go on committees, attend meetings or put their hand up for anything. They just sit in the background and ***** about what everyone else does. If Country Cup is THAT BAD, how about going to your own associations and giving us all of the solutions!
Denece Jones
wchester
Bowling Tragic
Revised July 2007
VICTORIAN COUNTRY TENPIN BOWLING ASSOCIATION
COUNTRY CUP
1. PURPOSE
(a) The purpose of the Victorian Country Cup is to foster friendship, sportsmanship and tenpin bowling skills among the Victorian Country Associations.
(b) To conduct an annual tournament, the Country Cup, to determine the best Ladies team, the best Men’s team and the best combined Country Association Team.
(c) To determine annually the best Victorian Country Association representative tenpin bowlers, consisting of five (5) players in the ladies division and (5) players in the men’s division.
2. PARTICIPATION
Participation in the Victorian Country Cup will be limited to one (1) team in each division from the following associations: ALBURY/WODONGA, BALLARAT, BENDIGO, COLAC, GEELONG, LATROBE VALLEY, OVENS & MURRAY, SALE, SHEPPARTON, SUNRAYSIA, WARRNAMBOOL and any other Association invited to participate by a ¾ majority decision of the above member associations.
3. TEAM PLAYERS & OFFICIALS
(a) Each team player must be a registered member, in good standing, of the local association or registered bowling centre they are representing. They will represent the first centre/country association they are registered with and must not reside within a 60 kilometre radius of the Melbourne area.
(b) Team players must live in country Victoria (or Albury) for a period of at least six (6) months prior to the tournament.
(c) Team players must have played on a weekly basis in a recognised TBA league within the local association they wish to represent for at least six (6) months prior to the tournament.
(d) Exemption to these rules must be applied for in writing to the Board, listing all relevant details to be considered.
(e) Each official or non playing member must hold a current TBA registration card and be in good standing.
4. TEAM SELECTION
(a) Teams will be selected by the respective associations in a manner decided by the Board of Directors of that association
(b) Each association secretary must notify the current Tournament Director at least twenty-eight (28) days before the commencement of the tournament the names of all participating members.
(c) The playing strength of the Country Cup teams, in both ladies and men’s divisions, is limited to seven (7) players per team. A line up of any team for any match will not consist of more than five (5) players who must be drawn from the seven (7) registered players, except in cases of emergency.
5. TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR
(a) The host association Tournament Director will be in control of all tournament preparations and the conduct of the matches whilst the aforesaid matches are in progress. They will also engage assistance as they may deem necessary for the successful conduct of the tournament.
(b) Before the commencement of the tournament, the Tournament Director and one (1) member of the next host association and one (1) other member will be appointed to make a total of three (3) members appointed to settle all disputes, protests and emergencies.
6. VENUES & DATES:
The Country Cup will be conducted in accordance with the following calendar:-
2006 BENDIGO
2007 SALE
2008 BALLARAT
2009 ALBURY
2010 SUNRAYSIA
2011 OVENS & MURRAY
2012 WARRNAMBOOL
2013 SHEPPARTON
2014 COLAC
2015 LATROBE VALLEY
2016 GEELONG
(b) Teams will be opposed against each other twice (2) over the Saturday, Sunday and Monday of the Victorian Labour Day Weekend in March of each year. Each match will consist of one (1) game series.
7. POINTS SYSTEM
(a) Points will be awarded on the following basis:-
Each team member will be matched against an opposing team member in the corresponding position in the line-up, and the bowler achieving the highest score will win a point for his / her team. In the event of a drawn score one-half (1/2) point will be awarded to each player.
(b) Team total pinfall will be compared with the total pinfall of the opposing team and two (2) points will be awarded to the team with the highest pinfall. In the event of the pinfall being equal one (1) point will be awarded to each team.
(c) At the conclusion of the contest the ladies team with the highest number of points will be declared the Champion Ladies Team of the year. The men’s team with the highest number of points will be declared the Champion Men’s Team of the year. Both Ladies and Men’s scores will be added together and the Association with the most points will be declared the Champion Association of the year.
(d) In the event of two or more teams finishing with equal points, one (1) complete game will be played by those teams finishing equal but only points will count. In the event that a tie should still exist, the tied teams will bowl two (2) frames as a ninth and tenth (9th & 10th) frame, for points, until a tie is broken.
8. LINE-UP
At the start of each game it is the responsibility of the Manager or Captain of the team on the odd numbered lane to declare their team’s line-up. The opposing team then may match this line-up in any way they desire.
9. BYE
In the event of a bye existing, teams will bowl against vacancy scores for points. A vacancy score of 180 for men and 170 for women will apply. (Therefore the scores to win are 181 for the men and 171 for the women.) Where a bye is not bowled, no points will be awarded.
10. ALL STAR TEAMS
At the completion of the competition the five (5) Ladies and five (5) Men with the highest averages over a minimum of two thirds (2/3) of the scheduled games for their division shall be declared the ALL STAR TEAM for the year. Each member of the ALL STAR TEAM will receive a medallion and a bowling shirt. These shirts will have the following printed on them-
V.C.T.B.A. ALL STAR TEAM, YEAR AND BOWLERS NAME, (Colour to be that of the host association), with the total cost of shirts to be equally divided between all country associations.
11. PRESENTATION OF TROPHIES
All trophies will be presented to the Captains of the winning teams immediately after the contest. The trophies will remain in the custody of the Champion Association and / or teams until the commencement of the next tournament.
12. CENTRES WITH OVER TWENTY-TWO LANES
When the Country Cup is contested in a bowling centre with sufficient number of lanes to allow both Ladies and Men to bowl at the same time period, the schedule will be drawn up so as the teams from the same Association play their games on adjoining lanes.
13. CENTRES WITH TWENTY-TWO LANES OR LESS:
When the Country Cup is contested in a bowling centre with twenty-two lanes or less, the tournament will be contested as follows:
SATURDAY & SUNDAY – alternating blocks of four games (men & ladies).
MONDAY – alternating blocks of three games (men & ladies).
At all times the Ladies will bowl first on the even numbered year and the Men will bowl first on the odd numbered year.
14. ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS
The HOST ASSOCIATION will present an award to both the Male and Female who have scored the highest single game during the tournament.
The HOST ASSOCIATION will present individual medallions to the members of the winning teams and plaques to the winning Association.
The HOST ASSOCIATION will present individual medallions to the members of the All Star Teams.
15. HANDING OVER OF THE COUNTRY CUP FLAG
Prior to the tournament, the host association must contact the next hosting association and arrange for an official of that association to be at the closing ceremony of the tournament in order to hand over the Country Cup flag to them.
16. DRESS CODE
Ladies may wear dress slacks, skirts or dress shorts, uniform in colour.
Men may wear trousers or dress shorts, uniform in colour, and suitable to all team members.
VICTORIAN COUNTRY TENPIN BOWLING ASSOCIATION
COUNTRY CUP
1. PURPOSE
(a) The purpose of the Victorian Country Cup is to foster friendship, sportsmanship and tenpin bowling skills among the Victorian Country Associations.
(b) To conduct an annual tournament, the Country Cup, to determine the best Ladies team, the best Men’s team and the best combined Country Association Team.
(c) To determine annually the best Victorian Country Association representative tenpin bowlers, consisting of five (5) players in the ladies division and (5) players in the men’s division.
2. PARTICIPATION
Participation in the Victorian Country Cup will be limited to one (1) team in each division from the following associations: ALBURY/WODONGA, BALLARAT, BENDIGO, COLAC, GEELONG, LATROBE VALLEY, OVENS & MURRAY, SALE, SHEPPARTON, SUNRAYSIA, WARRNAMBOOL and any other Association invited to participate by a ¾ majority decision of the above member associations.
3. TEAM PLAYERS & OFFICIALS
(a) Each team player must be a registered member, in good standing, of the local association or registered bowling centre they are representing. They will represent the first centre/country association they are registered with and must not reside within a 60 kilometre radius of the Melbourne area.
(b) Team players must live in country Victoria (or Albury) for a period of at least six (6) months prior to the tournament.
(c) Team players must have played on a weekly basis in a recognised TBA league within the local association they wish to represent for at least six (6) months prior to the tournament.
(d) Exemption to these rules must be applied for in writing to the Board, listing all relevant details to be considered.
(e) Each official or non playing member must hold a current TBA registration card and be in good standing.
4. TEAM SELECTION
(a) Teams will be selected by the respective associations in a manner decided by the Board of Directors of that association
(b) Each association secretary must notify the current Tournament Director at least twenty-eight (28) days before the commencement of the tournament the names of all participating members.
(c) The playing strength of the Country Cup teams, in both ladies and men’s divisions, is limited to seven (7) players per team. A line up of any team for any match will not consist of more than five (5) players who must be drawn from the seven (7) registered players, except in cases of emergency.
5. TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR
(a) The host association Tournament Director will be in control of all tournament preparations and the conduct of the matches whilst the aforesaid matches are in progress. They will also engage assistance as they may deem necessary for the successful conduct of the tournament.
(b) Before the commencement of the tournament, the Tournament Director and one (1) member of the next host association and one (1) other member will be appointed to make a total of three (3) members appointed to settle all disputes, protests and emergencies.
6. VENUES & DATES:
The Country Cup will be conducted in accordance with the following calendar:-
2006 BENDIGO
2007 SALE
2008 BALLARAT
2009 ALBURY
2010 SUNRAYSIA
2011 OVENS & MURRAY
2012 WARRNAMBOOL
2013 SHEPPARTON
2014 COLAC
2015 LATROBE VALLEY
2016 GEELONG
(b) Teams will be opposed against each other twice (2) over the Saturday, Sunday and Monday of the Victorian Labour Day Weekend in March of each year. Each match will consist of one (1) game series.
7. POINTS SYSTEM
(a) Points will be awarded on the following basis:-
Each team member will be matched against an opposing team member in the corresponding position in the line-up, and the bowler achieving the highest score will win a point for his / her team. In the event of a drawn score one-half (1/2) point will be awarded to each player.
(b) Team total pinfall will be compared with the total pinfall of the opposing team and two (2) points will be awarded to the team with the highest pinfall. In the event of the pinfall being equal one (1) point will be awarded to each team.
(c) At the conclusion of the contest the ladies team with the highest number of points will be declared the Champion Ladies Team of the year. The men’s team with the highest number of points will be declared the Champion Men’s Team of the year. Both Ladies and Men’s scores will be added together and the Association with the most points will be declared the Champion Association of the year.
(d) In the event of two or more teams finishing with equal points, one (1) complete game will be played by those teams finishing equal but only points will count. In the event that a tie should still exist, the tied teams will bowl two (2) frames as a ninth and tenth (9th & 10th) frame, for points, until a tie is broken.
8. LINE-UP
At the start of each game it is the responsibility of the Manager or Captain of the team on the odd numbered lane to declare their team’s line-up. The opposing team then may match this line-up in any way they desire.
9. BYE
In the event of a bye existing, teams will bowl against vacancy scores for points. A vacancy score of 180 for men and 170 for women will apply. (Therefore the scores to win are 181 for the men and 171 for the women.) Where a bye is not bowled, no points will be awarded.
10. ALL STAR TEAMS
At the completion of the competition the five (5) Ladies and five (5) Men with the highest averages over a minimum of two thirds (2/3) of the scheduled games for their division shall be declared the ALL STAR TEAM for the year. Each member of the ALL STAR TEAM will receive a medallion and a bowling shirt. These shirts will have the following printed on them-
V.C.T.B.A. ALL STAR TEAM, YEAR AND BOWLERS NAME, (Colour to be that of the host association), with the total cost of shirts to be equally divided between all country associations.
11. PRESENTATION OF TROPHIES
All trophies will be presented to the Captains of the winning teams immediately after the contest. The trophies will remain in the custody of the Champion Association and / or teams until the commencement of the next tournament.
12. CENTRES WITH OVER TWENTY-TWO LANES
When the Country Cup is contested in a bowling centre with sufficient number of lanes to allow both Ladies and Men to bowl at the same time period, the schedule will be drawn up so as the teams from the same Association play their games on adjoining lanes.
13. CENTRES WITH TWENTY-TWO LANES OR LESS:
When the Country Cup is contested in a bowling centre with twenty-two lanes or less, the tournament will be contested as follows:
SATURDAY & SUNDAY – alternating blocks of four games (men & ladies).
MONDAY – alternating blocks of three games (men & ladies).
At all times the Ladies will bowl first on the even numbered year and the Men will bowl first on the odd numbered year.
14. ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS
The HOST ASSOCIATION will present an award to both the Male and Female who have scored the highest single game during the tournament.
The HOST ASSOCIATION will present individual medallions to the members of the winning teams and plaques to the winning Association.
The HOST ASSOCIATION will present individual medallions to the members of the All Star Teams.
15. HANDING OVER OF THE COUNTRY CUP FLAG
Prior to the tournament, the host association must contact the next hosting association and arrange for an official of that association to be at the closing ceremony of the tournament in order to hand over the Country Cup flag to them.
16. DRESS CODE
Ladies may wear dress slacks, skirts or dress shorts, uniform in colour.
Men may wear trousers or dress shorts, uniform in colour, and suitable to all team members.
Well said Denece, For a while I thought I must have been at a different meeting.
I would say that last Saturdays meeting would be the most positive VCTBA meeting I have atteneded.
It is such a shame that all these people who have all the answers will only post them here to make "heroes" of themselves, and not attend meetings to raise issues, or bring their concerns up with their relevant associations.
Again, well put Denece, after all, we are only trying to do the best for ALL associations. How terrible are we.
Doug Gordon
Warrnambool
Carmers
Member
Seperate issue again:
I just had a thought. There is always speculation as to what happens, like what Denece was saying. Comments are being made about happenings at meetings, which seems to stem from speculation. Perhaps there could be a seperate section created for minutes of association meetings, that way bowlers have full access to the happenings and facts would become correct?
I dont know if this suggestion has weight or not?
I just had a thought. There is always speculation as to what happens, like what Denece was saying. Comments are being made about happenings at meetings, which seems to stem from speculation. Perhaps there could be a seperate section created for minutes of association meetings, that way bowlers have full access to the happenings and facts would become correct?
I dont know if this suggestion has weight or not?
Freddo
Old Timer
Hey Carmers,
You should be able to get a copy from your Association Secretary...
Why should all non members of the VCTBA have access to VCTBA minutes???
Denese,
Keep up the good work.
Carmers
Member
If I had an issue, I guess that I could. It was just a suggestion that may put an end to the speculation.
would'nt it be a benafit for the vctba to look at changes so that the cc does not end up in the trash the more in the comp the more people that will bowl and promote a great tournament instead of all the negatives that are going on now because if i was just starting to bowl tournaments and read some of these threads i would go elswhere.
S
sampson1791
2008 Sale can compete in CCup.
It's the future (as it always is) that is unclear.
It's the future (as it always is) that is unclear.
grumpie
Active Member
OK before we all get too carried away, I am just going by what was reported back to bowlers at a meeting on Monday night. Maybe it seems that what was said at Moorabbin and what was repeated back to us is not the same thing. Possibly a misunderstanding. I don't know and I can't answer that but I am not the only one who walked away from the meeting with the same understanding.
As far as attending meetings, well we choose a representative to attend the meetings and they report back to the rest of us. I have offered to go along on previous occassions but to no avail.
As far as putting my hand up to help out etc, I am on 2 associations to do with bowling and also get involved in my community. I understand what Denece is saying but I am a person who puts their "Money where their mouth is" so to speak.
My concern is purely with trying to clear up where the 2008 Sale team for Ccup stands. I enjoy Senior Shield much more than Ccup but I would have no problems if Sale couldn't field a team.
So hopefully somebody out there could clear all this up for us and we can move on.
Liz
As far as attending meetings, well we choose a representative to attend the meetings and they report back to the rest of us. I have offered to go along on previous occassions but to no avail.
As far as putting my hand up to help out etc, I am on 2 associations to do with bowling and also get involved in my community. I understand what Denece is saying but I am a person who puts their "Money where their mouth is" so to speak.
My concern is purely with trying to clear up where the 2008 Sale team for Ccup stands. I enjoy Senior Shield much more than Ccup but I would have no problems if Sale couldn't field a team.
So hopefully somebody out there could clear all this up for us and we can move on.
Liz
