country cup debacle...

[bambam]

after reading the contentious issues raised above in regards to holding / not holding a country cup @ colac over easter, may i propose a suitable happy medium.
firstly, it has come to pass that a rumour is circulating in regards to additional teams / asociations wishing to join. namely: Warrigal, Echuca, Rosebud and possibly even Melton, this would bring the total teams vying for C/Cup to 16... not an attractive proposistion UNLESS.....

a) after the 2004 event ( contested by the 12 current associations) is held, the top eight (8) teams become DIVISION 1.. and only 1 of these 8 can win the 2005 country cup etc.etc.. (based on the total scores of both male and female). the reasons for suggesting 2004 and not 2003, are twofold. there are only 9 teams in 2003 that have both men and women, and also it allows a 12 month research period to implement such a major change.

b) the bottom four teams ( of 2004) PLUS the four new entries ( Warrigul, Rosebud, etc,etc) become DIVISION 2.. and contest for a suplimentary trophy at a different venue to that which host div 1.
(similiar to English Soccer)..

c) in subsiquent years the bottom 2 teams from div. 1 are religated and the top 2 teams in div 2 are promoted...thus giving all 16 teams an aim.

d) with 8 teams in each division.. small centres ( eg. colac, albury etc) can adiquately host this event at any time (preferably Labour day w/end). also means less bowlers vying for the NON ACCOMADATION promblems of colac.

e) for bussiness purposes (ie management) with 2 venues being utilised, it means that more centres get a 'cut of the pie" more often.

sure, there may be teething problems, a roster may be somewhat awkward to establish for long range planning, for example one centre may be designated host of div 1, yet their team could end up in div 2....

however..bowling must move forward.. 12 teams or more should not be subjected to a 10 lane centre... if any one can add some critical data (either pos or neg) to this suggestion, please do,

anyway... feel free to voice an opinion..

Cliff Roberts BA (sociologist)

 

[craig]

good idea

would division one be held at every centre or just the ones that are in the division one group

would it be decided on overall standings, or can you have a division one mens team, and a division 2 ladies team

would both divisions hold their event over the labour day weekend

so next year would geelong host division one and two over different weekends say (labour day div 1 and australia day div 2) or would it host division one and would morwell host division two

we could have division 1 and division 2 centres, for example geelong division 1 and bendigo division 2

 

[bambam]

reply to chucky

craig... of course this proposal is only in its infancy however...

i would suggest that entry into div. 1 and/or religation to div 2 be decided purely on total points from both male and female teams..this of course could 'technicaly' result in 'say' the men winning, the women coming dead last, and the overall resulting in religation (not likely..but possible.. this could almost create a psuedo civil war..could be interesting..hehehe, whereas the defending male champion team cannot defend their title 'coz they have been religated.),

i propose that both divs be played on the same w/end..labour day.. but be played at different centres..however ones which are reasonably geographicaly friendly to each other...

a proposed roster..as an example could be....

2005.. Morwell hosts both in its own right ( 26 lanes = ample)
2006.. Sale hosts div. 1,, Bairnsdale hosts div 2.
2007.. Bendigo hosts div 1,, Shepp hosts div 2.
2008.. Ballarat - div. 1, Melton - div. 2.
2009.. Albury - div 1, Wodonga - div 2.
2010.. Mildura - div. 1, Echuca - div 2.
2011.. Warrigal - div 1, Rosebud - div 2.
2012.. Warrnambool - div 1, Colac - div 2.
2013..Geelong hosts both in tis own right (28 lanes..no probs)

*werribee.if a future inclusion is also large enough to host this dual event outright*

of course if 'say' in 2007, Bendigo is in Div 2 and Shep. Div 1, then they would simply swap, and so forth.

it must be highlighted though Craig.. that many folk within the tenpin faternaty would scoff at such a proposal, and as such implementing such a change will naturally result in major critisisms., however the opinion of many of these conservative die hards is meaningless unless they can voice meaningful constructive critisism.
As you know I have been involved in this sport for over 3 decades, in both metropoliton and regional areas, i'm a coach, a lane inspector and having served over 10 years on association boards in varying positions i feel that my opinion is worth while.. thank you for your positive input and very pertanent questions... see you @ easter... your shout ..lol

Cliff (the dad in dad's army)

 

[Roo Boy]

Dont speak to soon chucky

Hey chucky you better not get to involved yet because for one
1) You go to learn to bowl on oil again
2) Qualify
3) If u do that you still wont beat me.

Well what can i say.

Deano :wink: :roll: :shock: :shock:

 

[craig]

gees your quick, boy

quicker on here than you are on an approach at times

i adapted quite fine at the marathon next year (high tournament ave for 30 games)

qualify, lol, i'll just bribe the field

beat you, lol, i'm on a roll 1140/5 to 950 wasn't it ??????? ( i lost count when i got to 150 ahead)

as for these other bunnies up there, i'll have them sooking their asses off if they ever get on the same approach as me.

 

[bambam]

you tell him chucky..

afterall is it not a case of: you taught the boy wonder everything HE knows. but you haven't taught him everything YOU know...
what can i say... ?? oldies for ever...
DAD (cliff)

 

[Kellie]

Dean the man what drugs are you on....... Craig has been bowling well so look out when he gets on the lane with you, ...you know how I use to put him off and it is easy to do and that is just spit in his thumb hole and wipe it around a bit......then when he goes to bowl you will see what happens and then you can sit back laugh your arse off at him and you know that you will have the game won, just try it and see how you go,
take care

 

[Roo Boy]

You are all talk

Well i just cant wait.

Cant wait to embarass you on the lanes matey.

I heard you changed your style to bowl like Kieran used to.

JUST BRING IT

Deano

 

[Graham]

Re: reply to chucky

i would suggest that entry into div. 1 and/or religation to div 2 be decided purely on total points from both male and female teams..this of course could 'technicaly' result in 'say' the men winning, the women coming dead last, and the overall resulting in religation (not likely..but possible.. this could almost create a psuedo civil war..could be interesting..hehehe, whereas the defending male champion team cannot defend their title 'coz they have been religated.),

Why not just have the Men and Women decide their own fate, and if it means that the Men are in Div 1 and the Women are in Div 2 then so be it. Thems the breaks - they will have to do well to get up to Div 1.

In Soccer if the Mens team is winning and the womens losing, they arent going to say "sorry lads, you won the flag but because of the girls you gotta go back to 2nd Division" ... wouldnt happen.

What about centres that might have one strong team and the other isnt. Then the strong team will be in Div 1 and the weaker team in Div 2, to work their way up. it wouldnt be fair to punish one team and drop them to Div 2 just because their counterparts arent performing. Same as it wouldnt be fair to keep teams in Div 2 for the same reason.

Just my 2c worth.

 

[xpense]

an idea for you

Bambam,
maybe a version of the Emerson Shield Format.

Divide the centres into regions.

Hold regional finals, top 1, 2 or 3 combined teams from regional final advance to state final.

You could have 3, 4 or 5 regions, with 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 teams.

With the centres divided into regions, it allows all centres to be in the same division, not an A and B.

You could mix the regional centres up every couple of years to stop centres from being dominate and preventing other centres from making the finals.

With mixing the teams in regions up, it will allow teams different competition, even if they are unable to make the state finals. (not putting any centre down)

The state finals numbers could be adjusted to the centre hosting the event.

Just a working idea, reworked to allow an overall winner.

 

[bambam]

thanks guys...

seems like a number of people have got some reasonably qualified thoughts on this matter....the more folk that 'nut through' this issue, the more chances of achieving a positive result to this rather awkward mess.... keep up the comments...thank you again.

just a quick point to graham in qld..
although i appreciate your thoughts, and your proposal, there is one down side to your point...
as the country cup IS decided upon the total of men and women teams points, having the two genders in seperate divisions defeats the whole "current' concept... which is
a/ mens division
b/ ladies divison.
c/ Country cup.... combined....

the only way ( i can foresee ) to permit your suggestion is to totaly revamp everything.... that would be silly.. the current format ( bar this years JOKE) is perfectly acceptable with the majority of bowlers, so no need to fix what technicaly is not broken eh?

thanks all the same...
cliff ( dad's army... has-been hotshot)

 

[ezymoney]

I was at the meeting where it was decided to have country cup at easter and I voted against it (was only 2 of us that did) and still consider it plain stupidity. When I spoke up a number of teams agreed with me only to play follow-the-leader when the voting started.

However, we do have to do 2 things.

1. give every centre a fair go.
2. promote bowling.

Got another proposition. Why not hold mens at one centre and womens at another?? Both centres could keep updated scores etc (either by phone or fax etc). Not hard and we could go to 16 teams without a problem. No divisions or relegations are needed.

I will be fighting to never have country cup at easter again but until I manage to get it done we have to live with it. It is also a precedent for future country cups which is the reason I believe some of the votes went the way they did at that meeting.

Gary

 

[AdrianS]

Just interested to find out....How many people would be bowling AO or Vic 150 this coming weekend if it weren't for country cup being on?. There 's no way in my opinion that something like this should clash with a major in the same state, after all i couldn't see SA having theres while SA cup is on.

 

[ezymoney]

We actually have a number of regular country cup bowlers who are not bowling because of vic 150 and AO.

It is a problem and I agree that country cup shouldnt even be considered on the same weekend as these events. (This was also mentioned at the meeting where the country cup was moved to easter).

Gary

 

[crazzzed]

I think all the suggestions posted have some mermit and should be put to a vote or something to decide. I'm not involved with the Cup so this may already be happening but what about a taskforce made up of the centres involved getting together with ideas from their centres to work out a solution. Just a thought.

From what I've read there doesnt seem to be an easy answer to this. I think that the idea of the soccer theory could work if its set up clearly from the start.

Ok heres my 2 cents worth...
What if the state was zoned and each centre in each zone roll off for the right to represent their area in the Cup. Depending on the number of zones you could have 2 or 3 centres from each zone going to the Cup. Now depending on the number of centres and zones the defending champion and possibly the runnerup centre/s would get automatic advances to the Cup to defend their title. Doing it this way, you could have 4-8 teams in a zones and still be able to bowl in the smaller centres. I'm not sure what the size is of the smallest centre involved in this so whatever they can have for a final (# of teams) would be the limit for zones so every centre can have a turn of hosting the qualifing.

Here is an example:
3 zones
2 teams from each zone advance
Champion and runner up from the previous year advance
Total 8 teams

OR

5 zones
1 team from each zone advances
Champion from the year advances
Total 6 teams - better for smaller centres

Now where should each year be bowled... Why not make it if you win the whole thing you get to host it the following year. If a small centre wins and cant fit 8 teams then you could either move it to the closest centre that will fit it or you could change the number of teams that advance. The only other option is to set down a rotation system between the centres that are big enough and the small centres have to settle for running the roll offs only. Either way all centres no matter what size will get to host some of part of the Country Cup.

Anyway I'm sure theres going to be holes found in my idea but maybe if enough people add their thoughts and refine the ideas put forward then something will be found to get the Cup back on track. I wish you all the best and hope you can fine a solution. I've bowled in the Dunn Shield in Melbourne and its one of the best competitions i've played in. I bet the Country Cup has a very similar feel to it, so c'mon people lets get together, find a solution and keep the fun in the sport.

Regards
B

 

[AdrianS]

Dividing country cup into zones would make it almost the same as Emerson Shield(for the country centres anyway) especially if Melton,Rosebud and Werribee wound up joining in, all of a sudden people would be faced with 2 lots of rolloffs, zone qualifying and the tounament proper when they get through the zone rolloff, and thats not even considering the ones that are involved in the senior shield too. Something like this could be too much of a good thing for many people and could water down the strength of all teams as people have to pick and choose.

 

[crazzzed]

I'm not familar with the Emerson Shield. how does it work and whats its format?

As for the zones watering down the competition I'm not sure if that would be the case. I maybe wrong and if so forget what I've said The way I saw it was that everything would be the same as it is now. Be play for there centre as they do now. Once each centre has a team then those centre play off in the zone final. Winning the zone final then means they go up against the rest of the other zone winners in the Country Cup.

It was just an idea for people to feed off and help to find a solution. the more feedback the better the chance of making it right.

 

[bambam]

what about if the zones play off if you place 1st or second in your zone you play for the country cup and then if you win that you play the winner of the dunn shield and the winner of that will be the vic champion

 

[crazzzed]

Bambam, thats an interesting idea. I'd like to here what other people think of this. It could be called 'The Victorian Challenge'.

 

[bambam]

so you still have the 2 comps to be played but the winner from each cup play off 4 the vic cup