Prizefunds - How far should we pay down to?

[GeorgeF]

When we compare Australian Bowling to Asia, Europe and the USA one major thing stands out, the ratio to payout! We have by far the biggest ratio of payouts per entries than any other country in the world.

Most of the High Roller series pays 1:8
Most European events pays 1:6
Most Asian Events pay 1:10+

Whilst people think these numbers are high, it is actually just the norm in Worldwide bowling. We payout far too much down the list. Why should 28th place pick up a cheque? I'm not saying this to be mean but if you have come 28th, you don't deserve one. If you pay more to a smaller group it makes that group more desirable to finish in. You bowl good, its worth your while. It also creates a pathway for up and coming bowlers to see that if they are good enough they can make good money out of the sport. It sets a goal and something to aspire to.

This weeks AO is a fine example, if you fly from interstate you have finish in the top 5 to break even and then make some money, thats tough. On my proposed prizefund, you just have to make the top 10 to finish ahead.

Yes there's more pressure to perform and yes it's going to be hit n miss for a lot of people but without big money to compete for its not worth anyones while.

Here is a prizefund of $25,000

1st. $4000
2nd. $3500
3rd. $3000
4th. $2800
5th. $2600
6th. $2400
7th. $2200
8th. $2000
9th. $1500
10th $1000

Now that would be based on a tournament of 100 paying $260 or so with a decent amount of sponsorship, so its not that realistic but my point is why are we fixated with paying down so far? If you compare this to any other sport you'll find that our tournaments reward those who come half way in the field, ie. 30th in a field of 60.

It wasn't long that ago I could not make a cut, and would donate my entry every single tournament. My aim was not only to win but to win some money, whislt I would recieve a little money for lower placings I didn't honestly believed I deserved it, I always thought the top places deserve the money.

So here is the question, based on a tournament of 100 bowlers, how far down do you think we should pay?

 

[Gutter rat]

I suppose it depends on why you are bowling in tournaments. If you are out to just make money then fine enter tournaments that pay 1 in 10. But If you bowl tournaments for the love of bowling then i guess if you see a payout of 1 in 10 , the numbers will drop because we will leave it to the pros like you George.

 

[Bowling Balls Australia]

This is one of those "double edge swords" & a good topic.

I have for a while now felt our sport rewards mediocrity by paying too low & I agree with George, finishing 26th should not justify a payout - it certainly would not in many other 'fringe sports'.

However, for a while now we have seen a very consistent leaderboard - the top 10 bowlers in the country are generally filling the majority of the top 10 positions. Congratulations and take nothing away from them, they have worked hard to get to the level they have and deserve every cent.

But........in reality due to the dominance of the top ten bowlers, it does not leave much room for let's say another 60 bowlers in the decent payout range. I think a lot of 'next tier' bowlers would be looking at the prize funds to see what 10th to cut-off pays, and how deep it pays - then make a decision on whether they can afford to go if they finish last in the payout.

I am relatively certain the bowlers having to pay for flights, accommodation, meals & entry fees would be needing a pretty high cut to break even. Do we maybe make the payouts not quite so deep and absorb that money into the second tier prize fund (ie 10th to 16th)?

The problem is twofold, do we continue to reward people for not doing very well, or do we not have those bowlers enter tournaments and therefore only have a field of say 25? Raising entry fees will not cause a major problem with most bowlers, an extra $50.00 will not sway too many people from spending up to a $1,000.00 or more for flights, accommodation, transport, meals & etc. That would make an enormous difference to the prizefund, whichever way it is used.

The answer...........who knows? I can only think of sponsorship or entry fee increases. Comes back to the same old things...... Here is my suggestion for what it's worth. The marketing and promotion of our game is not strong enough. What needs to be done is a deal with a television network (this is not as hard as it may seem), then with that assurance, approach relevant businesses offering them some outstanding exposure on the Super Six events which will be televised nationally on commercial TV, ie lunch break during the cricket again?

What most people or organisations do so far as sponsorship approaches go is make it all about themselves, they get 'filed' in my office. Generally they are in the style of a form letter "Dear Business Owner". What we have is a unique sport, which at some stage of their lives almost everybody has at least 1 go at - which can grow markedly if it is promoted correctly & financially supported. But it must be done at all levels, and soon.

I ask the question....how many people in the general population of Melbourne would know there are 2 big tournaments on this weekend? Could we say 5,000? That is probably way overstating it, but that equates to roughly 1.5% of the population. Promote, promote, promote !!!!

Another part solution......I really believe bowling centres charge too much in the way of lineage, especially at major events. No doubt some centre managers/owners will arc up at this a bit - but I will throw a scenario out there. 75 bowlers qualify over let's say 12 games on Saturday, lineage $4500.00 for the day at $5.00 per game, plus snack bar etc..... huge money for the staff involved and actual cost. If the lineage was reduced to a more reasonable $4.00 per game, and that is still plenty for the centre, an extra $900.00 just from Saturday alone can go into the prize fund. If television exposure was gained, the long term benefit to the centre would far outweigh the reduced lineage.........It's like any bulk purchase, one would expect quite a reasonable discount for huge guaranteed purchases.

The only other solution I can think of is to have more second tier events, ie those which are not financially attractive enough for the top 10 bowler to consider entering, but have a more even payout which will help the second tier bowlers? Maybe not fair to the top bowlers, but at least it gives someone else the opportunity of success and the people who cut will be suitably rewarded.

Just my thoughts...........Max

 

[wchester]

Just to throw a spanner inot the works, below is a quote taken directly from the Tenpin Bowling Australia Rulebook

RULE 813 DISTRIBUTION OF PRIZE FUNDS

3. When there are 100 or more entries in an event or division of an event, first place will not exceed 40% of the total prize fund. Second place will be paid approximately one half of first place. The last place prize including those paid for each last place tie must be equal to at least the amount designated as the prize fee.
Event rules can limit the number of prizes paid.

The Melbourne Cup has been in violation of this rule several times over the past few years by paying $100 spots to the bottom cashers, to say nothing of the fact that the prize fee portion of the entry fee is not revealed on our majors entry forms.

 

[GeorgeF]

There is a logical solution to this and its inline with what the rest of the world do. Irrelevant on payouts and ratios all the 3 bowling zones I mentioned have MULTIPLE RE-ENTRY tournaments. I have harped on about this subject many times before but it is truly the only way to boost prizefunds.

There are many benefits to why it works, it first of all allows bowlers who would not usually bowl the event to enter it at a fraction of the normal cost of a tournament. (AO entry is $260, a normal re-entry event might be $80 registration and $60 per squad).

It allows the prizefunds to be huge and uncapped. In Indonesia last year they had 420 participants over the 6 divisions (adult, youth, junior, men and women) these 420 bowlers represented over 3300 entries!!!!! Even at $40 an entry you can see how prizefunds can pay huge numbers.

The reason why no one had given it a decent go in Australia is because it takes a Bowling Centre Proprietor or bowling promoter to take a risk and guarantee payout irrelevant of entries. That means irrelevant if they receive 100 entries or 500 entries they pay out what they advertise. AMF won't commit to it as it posses too much risk and as a publicly listed company its not in the best interest of shareholders. Tournament promoters can even make money out of the concept (just like the High Roller series in Vegas that are run by professional bowling marketers for profit).

I think next year when Andrew returns you will see 2 significantly large RE-ENTRY tournaments in Australia. It is a proven success in Europe and Asia, no reason why we can't bite the bullet and do the same here.

I think I've just come up with my new 'POINT of VIEW' article

 

[mattr]

George i know that sounds all well and good but the issue is poeple want to see the prize fund spread out as 90% of the time its the same people who place in the top 10. the local bowler or legue bowler figures why pay my 280 bucks to keep payin george F to win torunaments all time. These guys bowl to hopefull make a litlt ebit of cash back .
i think it has to be spread, it cant be to top and the top bowlers in this country have to realiser that if it wasnt for the 185 to 200 average bowlers some of who bowl alot in the events wdont expect to win or place in top 5 and if it wasnt for them these tournaments wouldnt be held.

My view is thetop bowlers need to stop being so greedy and bowl to enjoy it not to think how much money they can win

Bowling for me these days is about enjoyment, sure i am competitive but its more abnout catching up with old friends and having a good time

 

[JWhitty]

How about some restrictions. We don't have the strength of bowlers to run a full scale 'pba' over here but consider this;

Most sports have 'amateurs' and 'professionals'. We don't
Those sports have 'amateur' and 'professional' events. We couldn't quite restrict the pro events like that but what if we had a number of events as amateur only?

This would mean defining what is an amateur to us... Perhaps a dollar cap in a two year period to remain amateur (eg, must earn less than $1000 in the last 24 months to hold amateur status).

Obviously the majors (which presently aren't very major, except in name) should be 'pro' events, but of the dozen or two events we see in the year, lets cut it back.

Apparently the "True Amateur Tournaments" in the states are a roaring success, because of two big factors I think.
Firstly the cost is modest, because there's re-entry - if you only want to feel the tournament, just bowl the once. If you're having an off day but you're serious, come back tomorrow and re-enter.
Secondly you don't have to face the pro's, your fringe bowler has every chance of winning. But do the pro's complain? No, they have their own circuit to play on...

 

[wchester]

As I see it, there are two things wrong with the tournament bowling scene in Australia

The ROI or return on investment isn't very appealing to any of the bowlers. First place should pay 10 x your entry fee at a minimum. And low in the finals should be 3 x the cost of an entry. WE have two choices here..either lower the entry fees via running tournaments with a shorter format, or pay less spots. paying 1 in 6 or 1 in 8 would do just fine. After all, this IS scratch bowling isn't it? If you don't cut, you really don't deserve to get any money back in return.

Secondly and maybe even more to the point is that we simply don't have the numbers to support a major circuit. With less than 20 top notch players in all of Australia, we're just a miniscule blip on the radar screen that makes up tenpin bowling worldwide.

 

[ratty133]

The only problem with running re entry tournaments is that you need more than a weekend to run them. And with the long weekends being odd in each state with the exception of new years, aus day, christmas and easter, you dont have many opportunities to run one of these events as you would need more than 2 days.

If we wanted to have a MAJOR event with re entries, you would probably need to look at doing it for AO, have your qualifying on the friday, saturday and sunday, with your finals taking place on the monday.

This way, you could run 5 or 6 squads a day, giving you between 15 and 18 squads of qualifying. Have your nomination fee at $80-$100 and each re entry at around $40-$60 with 48 bowlers allowed per squad.

With the right sponsorship, you could easily have an event worth alot more than our majors are now and have good payout right the way down.

If there were re entry tournaments around in Australia, id be there in a flash

 

[RobbieB]

Just to throw a spanner inot the works, below is a quote taken directly from the Tenpin Bowling Australia Rulebook
RULE 813 DISTRIBUTION OF PRIZE FUNDS
3. When there are 100 or more entries in an event or division of an event, first place will not exceed 40% of the total prize fund. Second place will be paid approximately one half of first place. The last place prize including those paid for each last place tie must be equal to at least the amount designated as the prize fee.
Event rules can limit the number of prizes paid.
The Melbourne Cup has been in violation of this rule several times over the past few years by paying $100 spots to the bottom cashers, to say nothing of the fact that the prize fee portion of the entry fee is not revealed on our majors entry forms.

Wayne, as pointed out in the other thread this refers to city/state/region association championships. This horse is seriously dead, stop beating it.

 

[RobbieB]

George, I'm not sure if you are drawing a distinction between entries and bowler numbers. Do the asian events pay 1:10 ENTRIES or BOWLERS?
100 bowlers averaging three entries each is 300 entries, 1:10 makes 30 places paid - still about 1:3 bowlers. Also, can you cash twice in these tourneys?


Personally, I think 1:4 or 5 is ok, but I think there would be more people bowling if the prizemoney was spread out more to make making the cut more attractive. Using your 25 places / 25K , I like this payout more than yours:

1st 2500
2nd 2000
3rd 1800
4th 1600
5th 1400
6th 1300
7th 1250
8th 1200
9th 1150
10th 1100
11th 1050
12th (cut) 1000
13 - 25: 750 700 650 600 590 580 570 560 550 540 530 520 500.

I've always thought that if you're good enough to cut, you should go home with some extra cash.
As for rewarding mediocrity, didn't the PBA pay 1:3?
Seriously, we need to realise that bowling is not a professional sport in OZ, and the top 5 or so are pretty much fixed in each tournament. If the fringe bowlers, who make the odd cut, get a decent payday when they do cut then it keeps more bowlers happy.

 

[BELMO]

To try and answer a few questions here.


In Europe.......The re-entry idea:

You make last place (in the cut) worth while. Fringe bowlers in Europe are not looking to win the event, they are looking at making the first cut and getting back 500 Euros.
Everyone here is talking about making the top 10........what we should be looking at (if a re-entry event was on) how much is it to make the cut?? How much do I have to invest to try and make the cut?
If the bottom number....say 32nd or 48th or what ever was $800, most bowlers wouldnt look at the prize fund much further up than that.

I know in Europe the bowlers bust their guts to qualify, because they know they will make a fair bit of their investment back.

Will that work in OZ?? Well how did that AO turn out? I cant remember the how many entries/re-entries there were.

Why does it work so well in Europe and Asia?
Ok so many more people, not big enough bowling centres, you need multiple squads to fit everyone in.
400 people in a 24 lane centre is not so easy.....Also many Europeans/Asians come in early during the week and bowl all week (something OZ cant afford to do with people working......1 day extra off is ok, but a week....dont think so)

Its a tough question to answer......

Personally i think its the current bowlers (the guys still playing) to do a little ground work and grab 1 extra mate each and take them along to bowl.
1 extra mate will halve your expenses and you will have another person you can complain to about all the solid 9 pins you left

Belmo

 

[lovey]

Hey Belmo,
When I took a mate, I had to rent one. All I could complain about was not the solid 9 pin I left, it was that bloody cold 5 pin.
Lovey

 

[DIECAST NUT]

We could look at, a part from high roller if you had the reentry format, if we had entries at example $120 ad reentry at $50 but add let say add $20 - $30 per entry for squad high game , total series, 2 game block series. so if look at it for 20 bowlers that $600 so if you give 3 awards that $200 each, so why would not go for that, you may not make matchplay, but if you do a couple of squads and bowl a well you could pay for your weekend in just squad bowling, and this Idea is open to all because top bowlers are not going to bowl every squad.

What you think for an idea??

 

[Troyza]

I think 1:8 is a good pick.

Sure, the top 10 may be dominated by the same people more often than not. But shouldn't that push the rest of us to get better? In my opinion, not many people are going to become better tournament players by settling for a 25th spot because it pays out their entry fee. It's almost as if this sport needs a bit of risk taking injecte3d into its participants.

 

[Nebster]

Thing is Troy...can people afford to do that??? That's the question here.

 

[Troyza]

I basically answered that Ben; People need to take more risk, or practice more so they can actually get something back. I understand what George is saying, why should Australia be different? Also, with a higher pay-out for higher placings, it may attract more than just Australian bowlers. Not to mention, if the Australian public realised that bowling can mean serious money, it may become attractive for people wanting to join a sport.

(PS: totally off topic, but next time you hold in a trouble call bell, I'm going to kick your ass, ben.)

 

[BrenH]

I would rather bowl tournaments with a lower percentage payout across the field but a higher return when you cash. Makes the times when you cash actually worthwhile.
Wherever you cut to is where the cash should start.

Re-entry events sound like a good idea too. More chances to qualify but potentially a cheaper way of doing so if you have a great first attempt.

 

[da_cowman]

Would it be fair to say that the more you have pay to enter the tournament, then the further down the prizefund should pay?
If your outlay is $50 and it pays 1:10... you don't mind too much, it's $50 bucks, you got some games, had some fun.
If it's $350... you get some games and bowl in the top 20 it'd be nice to see a little bit of that back.
When we have sponsor paying everything and the bowlers outlay drops, make the prizefund as top heavy as you want... people won't mind paying a little to try and win a lot, especially with re-entry tournaments.

Later Da Cowman!

 

[NoodleS]

Well to be completely honest I go to these tournaments prepaired for the fact that I'll be donating and if I could get the time off work more often I would enter in much more. Also if I was to make the cut one day, which I aspire to do everytime it'll make it so much more rewarding if it gave a considerable pay.

I think maybe the winner needs to get a fair bit more then 2nd to make it more worth while actually being the winner and if you were to pay down to 25 or 30 they should get a hell of alot less then the bowlers who made the cut, they worked hard so they deserve it. For example;
1st-$4000
2nd-$2000
3rd-$1800
4th-$1600
5th-$1400
6th-$1300
7th-$1200
8th-$1100
9th-$1000
10th-$900
11th-$800
12th-$700 (cut)

13-16th-$200
17-20th-$100
21-30th-$50 (cash back)

I dunno about anyone else but I think you should be bowling in these tournaments for the love of the game at the highest level and to aspire to improve enough to get one of the big prizes one day.

If I finished 21-30th and received $50 back I'd be quit happy coz it'll pay for the slab to back to the motel room with and enjoy the rest of my trip.