8 pins start for women commencing in 2013

People just need to have more confidence in themselves. A woman might have a 215 average in league and this is where lane conditions come in, they might bowl in a very easier centre.
We need to remember that tournaments are bowled on pretty tough conditions and really at the start of the day its an even playing field.

I personally don't think this will drop tournaments numbers at all, it will only increase them.
 
What if the same, higher ave women (who, IMO, don't need 8 pins), keep winning as a result of the 8pins, the women who may have been enticed to come & bowl, may stop turning up if the same 2 or 3 women keep winning, not to mention a bunch of men who may drop out as well, for the same reason....
 
What if the same, higher ave women (who, IMO, don't need 8 pins), keep winning as a result of the 8pins, the women who may have been enticed to come & bowl, may stop turning up if the same 2 or 3 women keep winning....
That makes zero sense. Think about it.
not to mention a bunch of men who may drop out as well, for the same reason....
That is more likely, although for that cohort it will just mean they are losing to a different person. However, getting more women to bowl should over time help raise the standards and increase the depth in womens bowling here, and even if the numbers end up being a wash that will still be worthwhile.
 
What if the same, higher ave women (who, IMO, don't need 8 pins), keep winning as a result of the 8pins, the women who may have been enticed to come & bowl, may stop turning up if the same 2 or 3 women keep winning, not to mention a bunch of men who may drop out as well, for the same reason....

I suggest earlier that if a woman wins then they lose their 8 pins for 12 months which is what we do in our Victorian sports series. It got ignored
 
That's not a bad idea Beck. I understand the reasoning is to get more people to enter, particularly, more women, I just think that it could have the opposite effect of what (TBA) they are trying to achieve...
 
By this rationale, almost everyone should've pulled out of NSW open once Belmo and Dom put their name down...

But they didn't, did they? In fact, it was a great field.

Cheers, Cow

Fair call Cow, I'm just playing hypotheticals....
 
Its worked in Europe and Asia for 5 years now, its not just an idea, its a proven concept. Kegel came up with the number after years of statistical data was analysed. Its a great way of boosting tournament numbers and tournament prizefunds. For all the guys out there worried about women beating them, better head down to your local centre and start practising. If you cant beat them, youre not good enough plain and simple.
 
I agree with George, think its a great idea. Anything to get full fields and get the elite girls playing regularly is a win in my opinion
 
Im split on this one after reading many posts on the topic.

After reading GF say its a "proven concept" that settled it for me. But not in the way you may think.

Its literally changing the way the game is played and the winner is decided. DONT GET ME WRONG... i understand the "concept" of getting more entries and its worth a trial, BUT to join Amagill the hypothetical is interesting.

For example, this wont be a trial at all, lets say they do it and it has the expected result and there is an increase in entries, but on the flip side it scares away some male entries, lets face the fact that this will happen, how do we then go back after the trial and justify whether it is kept or not? Its all food for thought.

I get what Robbie is saying, if the same women keep winning it doesnt matter as all women had the 8 pins. Its how many Men were beaten by not only the eventual winner (if female) but how many also missed out on cutting due to solely the 8 pins start per game.

Truth is it will hurt some ego's no doubt. To me its not the top class bowlers who are the ones who are being disadvantaged, its the guys who are in or around the cut or who strive to make a cut (cos they never have) who will be disadvantaged. They work on their game to get to day 2 but get pipped by 10 pins when someone else had 80 pins given to them for free.

As i say, not throwing fuel on the fire, just giving an opinion from someone who knows lots of people on the fringe of making cuts.
 
When it comes down to it, this will affect maybe 3-4 tournaments for the whole year, Joondalup, Kegel, Innisfail, Hobart off the top of my head. Off the top of my head again, no women really came with cooee of the top guys averages on a consistant basis, let alone the bulk of the field and in and around the cut, unless the tournament was played on more open conditions (see previous post about physical game). You will find a sprinkling of women in and around the whole field now with a bonus set of pins, but nowhere near the number, 'hypothetically' feared by some. All of the above tournaments this year had players up the top who were rev dominant. If women as some above say start winning, how is it any different to a tournament where a guy like Belmo rocks up, who is a class above anyone in this country, do people not enter the tournament because he decides to bowl?

And yes Kelly Kulick won a PBA tournament, but she is an exception to the rule, there aren't many women in the world who can throw the ball so strongly, let alone anyone in Australia to that level. The women face a whole different kettle of fish too in the way their lane conditions break down compared to guys tournaments (see previous post again). And the easier lane conditions where some women kept scoring pace with the guys were dual field tournaments, its almost a redundant point.

As I have said, I have no problems with them gaining the 8 pins and I believe entries should be on the up with this incentive for women.
 
All of the above tournaments this year had players up the top who were rev dominant. If women as some above say start winning, how is it any different to a tournament where a guy like Belmo rocks up, who is a class above anyone in this country, do people not enter the tournament because he decides to bowl?
I don't think the analogy works in full here. With one [or 5] bowler of Belmo's caliber turning up the field wouldn't diminish. Just the privilege of sharing the lane with him would be incentive enough to bowl, even if you know you have less chance of cashing with him there.

Hypothetically speaking, I think this is where the above posts are coming from. With the relatively top heavy prize funds and say you are the type of bowler to be fighting for the last 5 or so cashing spots at every event. If the ladies did not turn up without the 8 pin advantage they are obviously not going to be top International bowlers, the Belmo incentive is moot. If the 8-pin advantage encourages more lady bowlers to turn up and the advantage allows them to take out those 5 or so spots, why would one turn up?

It is similar to some VERY top heavy tournaments. If only paying 1/5 and there is a draw of 50 bowlers, there's 10 paying spots. If several of the up there bowlers put their name down (say 5-7) I know I then have to beat the rest of the field to cash. Being that I have bowled many of the up there bowlers during league (and obviously lose most of the time) and probably will next week also, the 'privilege' incentive is gone also. Why would I put my name down for this particular donation??

And yes Kelly Kulick won a PBA tournament, but she is an exception to the rule, there aren't many women in the world who can throw the ball so strongly, let alone anyone in Australia to that level.
To be honest there's not too many men in Australia at her level either. She is one awesome bowler!

As I have said, I have no problems with them gaining the 8 pins and I believe entries should be on the up with this incentive for women.
I personally don't mind the idea, I hope it works out, for the benefit of Tenpin Bowling. I'm not at the level that it will affect me wither way.

My $0.05.
 
Why does my post have strikethrough throughout most of it?? is there a way to fix it?

I know I've been away for a while, but to be censored!! lol!!
 
if we don't get with the times and do what the rest of the world are doing how does our country stand a chance against the rest of the world on the world stage. yes if the women win with the 8 handicap it will hurt egos been their done that, but if the bowler looks on the positive if we can increase the entry numbers 2 things will happen. first sponsors will look at tournaments and go wow look at the number of people participating and spectating. which will help with tournament sponsorship and secondly more entries could mean a possible influx of prize fund payouts. This change can only be a positive thing coz bowling is dying in this country and something needs to be done. the old saying if it ain't broke don't fix it, well bowling is broke and we need to do something. one of the biggest reasons australia isn't doing so well these days on the world stage is because we hav been staying 60 yrs in the past for the last god knows how long and the rest of the world moved forward so now we are behind them. tba and our national coach chris batson are trying to change the current situation. mike little is 100% rite with everything he has said if people don't bowl tournaments based on the women getting a 8 pin handicap well i feel sorry and worried about bowling in this country. if u love bowling as a sport show ur support and treat it like a sport train, workout, practice, diet what ever u need to do coz this is wat elite bowlers in the rest of the world are doing and most don't even represent their country. only reason people get beat is coz they allow it by lack of organisation. thier are only excuses if u allow it to be a excuse.
 
I don't think the analogy works in full here. With one [or 5] bowler of Belmo's caliber turning up the field wouldn't diminish. Just the privilege of sharing the lane with him would be incentive enough to bowl, even if you know you have less chance of cashing with him there.

It wasn't meant to be final analogy, but a general point, so it is not so much because Jase is bowling, but if he goes to a tournament, his skill level is that far ahead of anyone else in this country it isn't funny, hence why he laps the field, if a female bowler has a good day and uses the 8 pins to their advantage, big deal, I doubt it will stop guys bowling and if they do, it will be a pure ego thing. You are right, other bowlers enjoy bowling a tournament with Jase for that experience, but why are they happy to be beaten by him or anyone else, but not a female just because of the leg up? As I said in my OP, their averages haven't been that comparable to the guys unless the tournaments have been joint tournaments where the lane conditions are a little more open. I can't see it happening too often for the guys tournaments.

Hypothetically speaking, I think this is where the above posts are coming from. With the relatively top heavy prize funds and say you are the type of bowler to be fighting for the last 5 or so cashing spots at every event. If the ladies did not turn up without the 8 pin advantage they are obviously not going to be top International bowlers, the Belmo incentive is moot. If the 8-pin advantage encourages more lady bowlers to turn up and the advantage allows them to take out those 5 or so spots, why would one turn up?

Women already occupy sporadic spots in finals here and there in the guys tournaments, granted with the 8 pins, there may be more, but I highly doubt it should be enough, obviously it will burn a few vying for that last spot, but on the flip side the difference between the cut and just below is minimal in prize money if this is the concern. Guys will just have to see the women with their 8 pins as being a normal part of things for the next year.

It is similar to some VERY top heavy tournaments. If only paying 1/5 and there is a draw of 50 bowlers, there's 10 paying spots. If several of the up there bowlers put their name down (say 5-7) I know I then have to beat the rest of the field to cash. Being that I have bowled many of the up there bowlers during league (and obviously lose most of the time) and probably will next week also, the 'privilege' incentive is gone also. Why would I put my name down for this particular donation??

No bowling tournaments in the calendar pay 1:5, most at worst are 1:3 ratios, 20 spots for 60 bowlers generally. I can see your donation point, but it all depends what you or other bowlers want to get out of the game, do you want to improve yourself and your game, so that you don't feel as though you aren't donating or give up and not bother? If you play against these higher skilled bowlers on a regular basis, are you at a stage in your game where you want to improve towards their level or are you happy to keep doing what you are doing? Everyone will have different motivations, incentives and ideas of what they want to achieve from this sport. But if anyone decides to enter tournaments, or participate in a competitive way in this sport, they should have a realistic idea of what they want to achieve anyway.


To be honest there's not too many men in Australia at her level either. She is one awesome bowler!

I agree, I would go as far to say there are no guys in the country at her level when she is on but then again, we don't do it for a living either. Obviously aside from Jase.


I personally don't mind the idea, I hope it works out, for the benefit of Tenpin Bowling. I'm not at the level that it will affect me wither way.

My $0.05.
 
big deal, I doubt it will stop guys bowling and if they do, it will be a pure ego thing.
I do not believe this is fully correct. For some maybe but for others it is more a risk/reward economical analysis. If number of entries increase due to the 80 pin advantage (over 10 games), lets face it, that is what it is designed to do, I have to weigh up whether it is statistically economical for me to enter the event. If, like many fringe bowlers this tips the scale in the negative, I wont attend.

No ego here, not good enough to have one.

Hey I do an economical analysis before each event now, but what I factor in is who of the top bowlers are attending versus my ability. It is the ability factor that tilts it in the negative for me everytime.

You are right, other bowlers enjoy bowling a tournament with Jase for that experience, but why are they happy to be beaten by him or anyone else, but not a female just because of the leg up?
I am happy to be beaten by anyone, a lot of practice here. However the Belmo situation is the "celebrity" factor. I can barely hit a golf ball within 120 degrees in front of me but if I was asked to have a hit around with Tiger or Badds, what would I do? Of course I would donate money to do that.
Asked to donate the same amount to have a hit around with the "cast" (said very loosely) of the Big Brother House, it would be an immediate no.

obviously it will burn a few vying for that last spot, but on the flip side the difference between the cut and just below is minimal in prize money if this is the concern
Generally one spot between making the cut and not making the cut is money back versus $0.00. For the likes of yourself it would not be a concern, you are likely to make the cut either way. But for fringe bowlers without sponsorship, it could depend on whether we eat on the way home or for the next fortnight.

No bowling tournaments in the calendar pay 1:5, most at worst are 1:3 ratios
Correct but my maths is bad. Much easier to work out a fifth of 50 than a 3rd of 50, for me anyways, so I went with that as an example.

Again, personally it does not affect me. Without the ability I am not going to do too much in the way of bowling and quite frankly if it does get more people bowling I am all for it.

Again, my $0.05, sorry.
 
^ good post

More women will enter as they are a better chance of cutting and cashing. If that's ok why is it not ok or frowned on if fringe men pull out as they are now less chance to cut and cash.
 
As someone who has been on the fringe many times having the ladies there won't put me off competing but will only motivate me more to improve myself. I think anyone who doesn't continue to compete and contribute to our great sport is only showing that they never had a desire to achieve or learn anything new anyway. We can't all be the best in the country but if we do not look at this positively e.g. a new challenge or obstacle to overcome, then you have to ask yourself did you even have the motivation to do something with yourself as a bowler in the first place or were you just showing up to make $150 if you were lucky enough to make the cut-off. When I show up for a tournament it's not just to make cut it's to try compete with the best in the country and win the event and if others were to look at it from that perspective then the 8 pins advantage shouldn't have much affect as you are aiming for more than just cashing. After all isn't that the main point of competing.

I support the move 100%
 
Some opinions on here have really baffled me. Perhaps it is people thinking about themselves and not the greater good of the sport, i don't know. But i would like to think that if i play in these tournaments and i play well i would have a reasonable chance of making the cut (i might need to bowl a bit before that happens). But if i miss the cut i won't be blaming the 8 pins one of the girls got, i will be cursing myself for being lazy and not practicing or getting some coaching.
 
Back
Top Bottom