8 pins start for women commencing in 2013
- Thread starter GeorgeF
- Start date
becka_girl
Proud Vic Chick
How come guys are so afraid of girls beating them?
bluey
Member
How come girls need a handicap to turn up?
rychenroller
Active Member
Was a bit of a victim of this in the latest sports series in Vic. Had a 9th and 10th frame rolloff with Cassie Staudinger to make the matchplay, even though I out-averaged her by 8. She's a great bowler, no shame in being beaten by her. Is it a bit hard to swallow? not really, but a blanket 8 pins whether you are Ann-Marie or a 180 avg league bowler seems too "standardized"
I am not sure if that was supposed to be sarcastic or not. But my point was that if i have done everything i can in the lead up to an event to be the best i can be then i wont be looking for an excuse as to why i didn't make the cut. And that is what it seems some people are trying to do here, find another reason for not succeeding. I wonder how many of those people who are complaining about the girls getting 8 pins a game are happy to play in their handicap leagues each week? Do they complain when they are getting 8 pins a game (or more) from their opponents?
I only wish that a thread about coaching and positive things in the sport got this much of a response. Belmo and Diandra are going to help alot of bowlers improve their games in the next few weeks at their clinics they are putting on, it will be the guys and girls who go to these and work hard and listen and learn that will make the cuts.
Roysa
Well-Known Member
I get what you are saying Goldberg, but if i do everything i can do just like you mention and it is only the 80 pins that stops me from cutting how should i feel? Should i have tried harder? Got more coaching?
There is no right or wrong in this debate, its all about opinion. I cant wait to see the scores to see exactly how this impacts the result not to mention the number of participants.
There is no right or wrong in this debate, its all about opinion. I cant wait to see the scores to see exactly how this impacts the result not to mention the number of participants.
jimcross
Active Member
"I am not sure if that was supposed to be sarcastic or not." ( Goldberg ). Yes, it was, jokingly sarcastic, because it was actually the way what you said came out, like- if I do everything as well as I can, a female can't beat me! You may not have meant that, but that's how it came out.
I am blessed with a simple mind. Some people agree with that, but use a word different from 'blessed'.
To my simple mind, a scratch event means no handicaps, and a handicap event means........Need I go on ??
I am blessed with a simple mind. Some people agree with that, but use a word different from 'blessed'.
To my simple mind, a scratch event means no handicaps, and a handicap event means........Need I go on ??
FRANKIE FOUR FINGERS
Member
There are a handfull of women bowlers in our national tournament circuit who can match it with the men most of the way, and good on them for putting in all the hard work required to get them there. Our sport needs strength and character to progress and with this TBA has shown the strength to try something different. This being said we the bowlers need to show character and give it a go. Remember fear is but a tool for disappointment, why not let go of fear and see what path this takes. Hard earnt dollars or not, everytime we enter as tournament it is a test of measure where the individual is and this is why we enter. If from the time we walk into a centre and worry about what pins someone might have, we shouldn't be there in the first place. I am sure no one enters our tournaments with the expertation of making a living out of bowling in Australia but has the passion to participate to forfill there competitive urges. Any bowler who puts in the time with there game will more often than not finish where they desevre to finish. Sometimes our biggest handicap is our thoughts.
Cheers,
Frank Bell
Cheers,
Frank Bell
Michael Little
Active Member
I thought I would actually do some rough figures on averages to see how they compare. Quite often a lot of the women would find themselves sneaking in the cut but we are talking 1-2 tops. And of these women, they are the ones who generally bowl regardless and are at the top of the tree. Looking at averages, it is probably important to note, that no female would have won a tournament this year on the mens side, the only time a female out averaged the guys was at Melbourne Cup over less games and on a pattern that favoured a shot played further right.
Joondalup
Top 3 averages 216 to 212, highest placed female, Carol 202 avg, could have got to 3rd max, next placed lady Kylie Bidwell 182 avg outside the cut, Kira Cheeseman avg 188, her 80 pins would have given her last place in the cut. So 3 females in total could have made the final.
Kegel
Top 3 averages 229 to 220, highest place female, Ann Maree 208 avg, could have got to 5th, next placed lady Narelle Baker missed 2nd cut, but 8 pins would have given her a place inside final matchplay. Outside of this, Bek Meads, Bianca Flanagan and Lexi Nicoll finished just in or out of the first cut, they would have made it, but based on qualifying averages, would have struggled to go any further, and these are places down in the 30s.
Australian Open
Dual entry event, lane conditions wide open, top 3 averages for the males 237 to 234 and for the females in the Vic 150, top 3 averages were 231 to 222.
Melbourne Cup
Dual entry event, lane conditions a little open again to allow the women to have some room, mens averages from 235 to 224 and the womens from 242 to 220.
Hobart Cup
Not many women played this event, but averages were through the roof up the top but levelled out lower down, women may have had a chance at cutting here due to a higher concentration of averages all around the same mark.
Innisfail Open
Mens event, top 3 averages from 219 to 203, highest placed women was Alicia Savell and Leanne Nastasi, 186 and 182 averages, both just missed the cut, with the 8 pins would have finished just inside the final cut, but based on rest of the field averages, would have stayed towards the bottom end.
NSW Open
Dual entry event, not a favourable lane condition for women, mens top 3 averages from 233 to 219 and womens from 220 to 208.
I can certainly understand people reservations on looking at where they can finish, basing trips accordingly etc and I am not discounting this factor, even though I 'am sponsored' and 'generally make the cut'. But don't get me wrong, I still look at what I can get out of tournaments as much as the next person. I am not agreeing with it, because 'I make cuts'. My point in saying that the prize money is fairly close down lower places of cut to outside of cut, I believe is valid, I am talking places 20-30 by the way as most final cuts are top 10-12. And based on where women would potentially finish, there seems there would probably be a few around the first cut off, ie 30th place and 1-2 might sneak into a final matchplay. Hence why I feel that missing or finishing just inside the cut is almost irrelevant in terms of prize money.
Also based on loose stats from looking at results from this year, and the names of women already playing guys tournaments, I don't think there will be too many occasions where the women will influence placings to a serious degree out of the odd spot here and there and don't flame me, because I am not being sexist. But if it works to the advantage of gaining more entries to tournaments, giving women encouragement to play more tournaments, due to lack of female tournaments, then I can't disagree too much. I want to encourage more tournament entries, see bowling build up a little again.
This year is a trial year for it, and we can only see what happens. I am sure those who have made the decision have looked at the stats over the previous years. I just believe it is worth a try. And if guys are really that concerned, what Bec said about removing a womens 8 pins privilege if they win also holds merit.
Joondalup
Top 3 averages 216 to 212, highest placed female, Carol 202 avg, could have got to 3rd max, next placed lady Kylie Bidwell 182 avg outside the cut, Kira Cheeseman avg 188, her 80 pins would have given her last place in the cut. So 3 females in total could have made the final.
Kegel
Top 3 averages 229 to 220, highest place female, Ann Maree 208 avg, could have got to 5th, next placed lady Narelle Baker missed 2nd cut, but 8 pins would have given her a place inside final matchplay. Outside of this, Bek Meads, Bianca Flanagan and Lexi Nicoll finished just in or out of the first cut, they would have made it, but based on qualifying averages, would have struggled to go any further, and these are places down in the 30s.
Australian Open
Dual entry event, lane conditions wide open, top 3 averages for the males 237 to 234 and for the females in the Vic 150, top 3 averages were 231 to 222.
Melbourne Cup
Dual entry event, lane conditions a little open again to allow the women to have some room, mens averages from 235 to 224 and the womens from 242 to 220.
Hobart Cup
Not many women played this event, but averages were through the roof up the top but levelled out lower down, women may have had a chance at cutting here due to a higher concentration of averages all around the same mark.
Innisfail Open
Mens event, top 3 averages from 219 to 203, highest placed women was Alicia Savell and Leanne Nastasi, 186 and 182 averages, both just missed the cut, with the 8 pins would have finished just inside the final cut, but based on rest of the field averages, would have stayed towards the bottom end.
NSW Open
Dual entry event, not a favourable lane condition for women, mens top 3 averages from 233 to 219 and womens from 220 to 208.
I can certainly understand people reservations on looking at where they can finish, basing trips accordingly etc and I am not discounting this factor, even though I 'am sponsored' and 'generally make the cut'. But don't get me wrong, I still look at what I can get out of tournaments as much as the next person. I am not agreeing with it, because 'I make cuts'. My point in saying that the prize money is fairly close down lower places of cut to outside of cut, I believe is valid, I am talking places 20-30 by the way as most final cuts are top 10-12. And based on where women would potentially finish, there seems there would probably be a few around the first cut off, ie 30th place and 1-2 might sneak into a final matchplay. Hence why I feel that missing or finishing just inside the cut is almost irrelevant in terms of prize money.
Also based on loose stats from looking at results from this year, and the names of women already playing guys tournaments, I don't think there will be too many occasions where the women will influence placings to a serious degree out of the odd spot here and there and don't flame me, because I am not being sexist. But if it works to the advantage of gaining more entries to tournaments, giving women encouragement to play more tournaments, due to lack of female tournaments, then I can't disagree too much. I want to encourage more tournament entries, see bowling build up a little again.
This year is a trial year for it, and we can only see what happens. I am sure those who have made the decision have looked at the stats over the previous years. I just believe it is worth a try. And if guys are really that concerned, what Bec said about removing a womens 8 pins privilege if they win also holds merit.
RobbieB
Rodentus scientificus
Just to add to Michaels analysis above, there were 19 ladies entered into the Barrier Reef Open, 4 cashed. The 8 pins would have just put Alicia into the final 12 cut (finished 17th), and there would have been two more ladies get minor cashes. Since most tourneys pay 1 in 3, and Innisfail paid more, you would expect 6+ cashes would be 'fair'. Still not a proportionate return on 19 entry fees, so the men were in a way subsidised by the womens entries.
More women bowling means more places paid, so it is a little simplistic to say they are taking places off the men.
More women bowling means more places paid, so it is a little simplistic to say they are taking places off the men.
magpi17
Active Member
While I agree with the 8 pins for women, why not look at other areas to get more players interested in playing. Maybe to make the cut on Sunday from the normal 24 take it to 36 and instead of playing 6 or 8 then cutting again why not play either the whole day or cut at 12 and then play 2 or 4 for result.
More chances to make the cut might attract those that are fringe players, give them experience on what the second day is all about and bring them back next time.
More chances to make the cut might attract those that are fringe players, give them experience on what the second day is all about and bring them back next time.
Opening up more spots for people to cut, will add more game costs to the total lineage, which will take the money right out of the prizefund. This could be fixed by increasing the entry fee, but that would drive more players away. Its a catch 22 and it really is a shame. There is a happy medium somewhere, it will just take a bit of time and some experimenting to figure it out......
Statistics can make anyone's point of view look valid. How many of the women bowlers that don't turn up to events, that will now, were added into those statistics? The point of giving 8 pins start is to ENTICE those females to turn up and bowl in more events, when that happens the ratio of making the cut versus not making the cut might be a little different. Maybe in the Males benefit (more females sub 190 that don't get through, as the cut is over 200), maybe in the Females benefit (more of the 190+ females turn up due to incentive that do make the required cut).
Dunno? Don't mind either way.
If people read my posts. I am not for or against the idea. As this is a public forum I am just trying to encourage conversation. As not much of the conversation was 'on the other side of the fence', I thought I'd throw it out there. OOPS!
If anyone IS scared to be beaten by a female, as one person said, they would have to be, in some way, mentally unstable. In fact as I said earlier I have had a lot of practice at being beaten by females, Tara has flogged me on many occasions (at bowling
lol) . That is FAR from the point I was trying to make. My point is that this MAY actually drive just as many away from tournament bowling as it attracts. I DON"T KNOW THAT AND IN FACT I HOPE I AM WRONG! In fact to go straight to that reasoning from what was said, to me, is a little unstable also.
Mind, some 'comments' really are bewildering. Blaming the 8pin advantage for not making the cut?? Are you on drugs?
PFFFFFT! <- Thats the sound of the point going straight over your head!
I was saying the 8pin advantage MAY make some fringe bowlers decide it is not worth turning up in the first place. If you have turned up, you A) have weighed up the pro's and con's and decided you are good enough to overpower the con's or B) you did not weigh it up and don't care either way.
Either way if you turn up, miss the cut AND you blame the 8pins, your just as unstable as the male who can't handle being beaten by a female.
Mick, I know you don't know me but I do know of your accomplishments. If you think I was having a go at you due to you being 'sponsored' or 'making the cut' you really do misunderstand me. That is fine. I was actually being complimentary in that I know you are good enough to make the cut no matter the situation or event and some of the times the 'weight' of weighing up and deciding whether it matters if you make the cut or not can be a lot easier when you don't have to worry about as much of the expenses as others have to worry about. That too is a GOOD thing as the better bowlers SHOULD have help as they help the companies that sponsor them. The only way for elite bowlers to crack the big time is to have sponsors helping them to do it. A business model that is sorely lacking in our sport. Sure the ball companies do A LOT but external sponsorship (Advertising by car companies , sports drinks ...) like other sports do, would be wonderful for our sport as a whole. Not knocking sponsorship in any way shape or form.
Maybe it is time for me to go on another near year hiatis! lol
For the third time, If this decision does HELP the sport of bowling, I AM ALL FOR IT!!
My $0.05 <- soon I'm going to put more in, maybe people will read what I write then.
Dunno? Don't mind either way.
If people read my posts. I am not for or against the idea. As this is a public forum I am just trying to encourage conversation. As not much of the conversation was 'on the other side of the fence', I thought I'd throw it out there. OOPS!
If anyone IS scared to be beaten by a female, as one person said, they would have to be, in some way, mentally unstable. In fact as I said earlier I have had a lot of practice at being beaten by females, Tara has flogged me on many occasions (at bowling
lol) . That is FAR from the point I was trying to make. My point is that this MAY actually drive just as many away from tournament bowling as it attracts. I DON"T KNOW THAT AND IN FACT I HOPE I AM WRONG! In fact to go straight to that reasoning from what was said, to me, is a little unstable also.Mind, some 'comments' really are bewildering. Blaming the 8pin advantage for not making the cut?? Are you on drugs?
PFFFFFT! <- Thats the sound of the point going straight over your head!
I was saying the 8pin advantage MAY make some fringe bowlers decide it is not worth turning up in the first place. If you have turned up, you A) have weighed up the pro's and con's and decided you are good enough to overpower the con's or B) you did not weigh it up and don't care either way.
Either way if you turn up, miss the cut AND you blame the 8pins, your just as unstable as the male who can't handle being beaten by a female.
Mick, I know you don't know me but I do know of your accomplishments. If you think I was having a go at you due to you being 'sponsored' or 'making the cut' you really do misunderstand me. That is fine. I was actually being complimentary in that I know you are good enough to make the cut no matter the situation or event and some of the times the 'weight' of weighing up and deciding whether it matters if you make the cut or not can be a lot easier when you don't have to worry about as much of the expenses as others have to worry about. That too is a GOOD thing as the better bowlers SHOULD have help as they help the companies that sponsor them. The only way for elite bowlers to crack the big time is to have sponsors helping them to do it. A business model that is sorely lacking in our sport. Sure the ball companies do A LOT but external sponsorship (Advertising by car companies , sports drinks ...) like other sports do, would be wonderful for our sport as a whole. Not knocking sponsorship in any way shape or form.
Maybe it is time for me to go on another near year hiatis! lol
For the third time, If this decision does HELP the sport of bowling, I AM ALL FOR IT!!
My $0.05 <- soon I'm going to put more in, maybe people will read what I write then.
jason_doust
The Bowling Geek
Statistics that are manipulated can support anyone's argument. (In a previous role, I provided operational management information analysis at the Australian Bureau of Statistics, but don't in any way claim to be a statistician.) Michael's Q&D analysis looks pretty sound to me at first blush though.
But I do agree with you Fitzy, let's suck it and see! It seems to be working OK overseas. Although with today's hyper-reactive, proto-nuclear impact gear, it does leave me wondering why women aren't winning more. Probably because they're looking after families on the weekends. If only bowling centres had undercover parking like the casinos, this could be sorted out! (JOKE! REALLY!!) There are many occasions where I think "That girl's a hair's breadth away from crushing this condition..." And I genuinely think that comes down to stuff Frank and Adam have covered already.
And Jim, Adam Goldberg has no superiority complex, just a bloody good work ethic!
But I do agree with you Fitzy, let's suck it and see! It seems to be working OK overseas. Although with today's hyper-reactive, proto-nuclear impact gear, it does leave me wondering why women aren't winning more. Probably because they're looking after families on the weekends. If only bowling centres had undercover parking like the casinos, this could be sorted out! (JOKE! REALLY!!) There are many occasions where I think "That girl's a hair's breadth away from crushing this condition..." And I genuinely think that comes down to stuff Frank and Adam have covered already.
And Jim, Adam Goldberg has no superiority complex, just a bloody good work ethic!
jimcross
Active Member
Jason, about the following observation - "And Jim, Adam Goldberg has no superiority complex, just a bloody good work ethic!"- unlike me,you're obviously busy. When you have the time, have another little read of what I said.
Cheers, Jim
PS, I suppose I'm a bit like Fitzy, in that I like to do the 'encourage conversation' bit.
I still tend to wonder - when is a scratch event not a scratch event?
Cheers, Jim
PS, I suppose I'm a bit like Fitzy, in that I like to do the 'encourage conversation' bit.
I still tend to wonder - when is a scratch event not a scratch event?
Michael Little
Active Member
Statistics can make anyone's point of view look valid. How many of the women bowlers that don't turn up to events, that will now, were added into those statistics? The point of giving 8 pins start is to ENTICE those females to turn up and bowl in more events, when that happens the ratio of making the cut versus not making the cut might be a little different. Maybe in the Males benefit (more females sub 190 that don't get through, as the cut is over 200), maybe in the Females benefit (more of the 190+ females turn up due to incentive that do make the required cut).
Dunno? Don't mind either way.
If people read my posts. I am not for or against the idea. As this is a public forum I am just trying to encourage conversation. As not much of the conversation was 'on the other side of the fence', I thought I'd throw it out there. OOPS!
If anyone IS scared to be beaten by a female, as one person said, they would have to be, in some way, mentally unstable. In fact as I said earlier I have had a lot of practice at being beaten by females, Tara has flogged me on many occasions (at bowling
Mind, some 'comments' really are bewildering. Blaming the 8pin advantage for not making the cut?? Are you on drugs?
PFFFFFT! <- Thats the sound of the point going straight over your head!
I was saying the 8pin advantage MAY make some fringe bowlers decide it is not worth turning up in the first place. If you have turned up, you A) have weighed up the pro's and con's and decided you are good enough to overpower the con's or B) you did not weigh it up and don't care either way.
Either way if you turn up, miss the cut AND you blame the 8pins, your just as unstable as the male who can't handle being beaten by a female.
Mick, I know you don't know me but I do know of your accomplishments. If you think I was having a go at you due to you being 'sponsored' or 'making the cut' you really do misunderstand me. That is fine. I was actually being complimentary in that I know you are good enough to make the cut no matter the situation or event and some of the times the 'weight' of weighing up and deciding whether it matters if you make the cut or not can be a lot easier when you don't have to worry about as much of the expenses as others have to worry about. That too is a GOOD thing as the better bowlers SHOULD have help as they help the companies that sponsor them. The only way for elite bowlers to crack the big time is to have sponsors helping them to do it. A business model that is sorely lacking in our sport. Sure the ball companies do A LOT but external sponsorship (Advertising by car companies , sports drinks ...) like other sports do, would be wonderful for our sport as a whole. Not knocking sponsorship in any way shape or form.
Maybe it is time for me to go on another near year hiatis! lol
For the third time, If this decision does HELP the sport of bowling, I AM ALL FOR IT!!
My $0.05 <- soon I'm going to put more in, maybe people will read what I write then.
From roughly reading the tournaments entered by women that were male ranked events, not all women who normally bowl tournaments bowled them all, but those that did, tended to be probably 50/50 in a mix of higher ranked female bowlers and local entries. I was just pointing out that of those women that bowled in the male ranked events, based on the averages this year, they really wouldn't have made a whole lot of difference. The averages can't be bent in any way to make a point of view more favourable. I guess the question is, will there be a significant influx of women's entries to these events to then increase the percentage of women to potentially make the cut/matcplay? Noone will really know that until the final tournament of the year, but also based on current averages from this year to date, no female bowler will come close to winning a male ranked event.
I do realise you are sitting on the fence on this one, and that is fair enough to be honest, no one knows how it will pan out, from my point of view, I just feel that it should be a positive in gaining extra tournament entries.
And I know you weren't particular singling me out for having a sponsor ship or regularly making cuts etc, I appreciate your comments. I just believe it is unfair as a generalisation that has occurred with many on this forum over the years to believe that it is okay to say (in a generalisation), that because some bowlers are sponsored and those are the guys or girls that generally finish in the final cut that we in some way are flippant in our attitudes to those finishing below us or on the fringe of making cuts. It really isn't so. I know you would realise so, but people don't often have an understanding on how hard some of these guys have worked on their game over many years to get to that level, again not having a go at you in particular, just a general attitude with some others over previous years. It's almost another subject on it's own, but the general bowling population due to current day and age, have no idea how easy it is for a top line player to have an off day and a lower average player to have a top day and beat them, nothing is ever guaranteed in this sport in particular in this day and age. You can take NSW as an example, Belmo was something like 250-300 pins in front at the end of the day, by far rights the best bowler for the tournament, but one game and a slightly wrong ball choice can muck that up due to the format.
And you are right, due to previous results, I might go and look at a tournament and look a little higher in the prize fund to see if it is worth it, but don't worry, I also look at worst case scenario as per the above example. I have had plenty of love hate relationships with many tournaments, one year bowling well, the next not so well, even missing cuts. But in regards to the original post and idea, I honestly feel that in regards to my point of where women may finish in tournaments shouldn't be a deterrent to guys bowling. Based on my previous post, which is where I was originally coming from, I just don't feel the female players will occupy that many spots to be all that concerned (again not being sexist
).I also agree with you in that bowling needs sponsorship injected from outside the sport, the industry and its stakeholders have been propping this up for far too long. Unfortunately, there is now no avenue towards media vision at present and the sport just has to rely on people like Lynne Clay assisting in this area.
I just hope this proves to be a positive, it's on trial, can only wait and see.
