Should we allow the changes to DeVeer?
- Thread starter Bowling Balls Australia
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tidal wave
New Member
Jan and other,
Who are continually referring to the de veer representative state teams as non state teams I would like to humbly wish to draw your attention to the following extracts from the TBA official website which have been underlined and bolded. Both can be found in full under the records tab and then the link for History of the Walter De Veer Memorial Tournament and History of the Walter Rachuig Trophy Tournament
History of the Walter De Veer Memorial Tournament
The tournament is now firmly established as a popular event contested over three consecutive days during the sport’s Adult National Championships. It is designed to foster, develop and advance a spirit of good sportsmanship and fellowship, to promote and maintain a good relationship amongst the representative teams and to provide an opportunity for a combination of graded and handicapped competition
Each year, the Walter de Veer Memorial Tournament determines the best State/Territory representative team of bowlers with averages not exceeding 180 in the Men’s Division and 170 in the Women’s Division in a handicapped competition. Each team consists of seven players, with five on the Lanes at any one time.
Participation in the Walter de Veer Memorial Tournament is limited to one team in each of the Men’s and Women’s divisions from the following States and Territories:- Queensland - New South Wales - Victoria - Tasmania - South Australia - Western Australia - Australian Capital Territory - Northern Territory
History of the Walter Rachuig Trophy Tournament
I can only recall two occasions when any of the original rules, which stated that participation was limited to non professional only. As most of the top players in each state were bowling in professional leagues or tournaments that particular rule was quickly abandoned
by Jack Walton
It was not until the 1977 running of the event that it was decided to hold the contest as part of the annual Australian Championships. Until that time the Rachuig Trophy was conducted as a separate tournament bowled each year in late November or early December.
Now not only is the Rachuig Trophy the highlight event of the two week bowling festival that is the National Championships, but it is also a “one of a kind” sporting event, the like of which is played nowhere else in the bowling world.
(adapted from an article by Steve Jones)
It is my very humble view after careful reading of the documents that the de veer event was designed as a representative event for the best State/Territory representative team of bowlers with averages not exceeding 180 in the Men’s Division and 170 in the Women’s Division in a handicapped competition and that Rachuig Trophy did not originally in it’s rules did not include the best or the elite from each state but only was limited to non professional. As most of the top players in each state was bowling in professional leagues or tournament. And I would also like to draw your attention to another following statement a “one of a kind” sporting event, the like of which is played nowhere else in the bowling world
From these statements, I can only draw one conclusion that both events are; for representative state teams, having their own uniqueness as state representative events whether through the scoring methodology of Rachuig or the average restriction for De veer.
Now for the on going statement regarding the right of De veer bowlers wearing of state shirts (with pride) if you accept my conclusions draw from the writing from the TBA web site they have every right to wear them.
As well, I would like to ask, “Why is it that the De veer bowlers appear to be promoting their achievement as a representative, and thus promoting our sport and what is possible to their peers and the social or novice bowler and are being belittle by the elitist bowlers or other representative bowler, where on the surface, other than the possible higher skill level of such bowlers there is very little pride displayed by wear there state shirts to advertise their own achievements and our sport to the wide community?
Also, why the youth representative teams are accepted by Rachuig bowlers as being a representative team even though they are constituted by, mainly, adult bowlers, under an age bracket and possibly lower average? Or conversely a senior representative teams, again possibly with a lower average, again having an age bracket as it defining restriction is? Yet an average restrictive team is viewed as a non representative team?
Awaiting all your comments
Brad
Who are continually referring to the de veer representative state teams as non state teams I would like to humbly wish to draw your attention to the following extracts from the TBA official website which have been underlined and bolded. Both can be found in full under the records tab and then the link for History of the Walter De Veer Memorial Tournament and History of the Walter Rachuig Trophy Tournament
History of the Walter De Veer Memorial Tournament
The tournament is now firmly established as a popular event contested over three consecutive days during the sport’s Adult National Championships. It is designed to foster, develop and advance a spirit of good sportsmanship and fellowship, to promote and maintain a good relationship amongst the representative teams and to provide an opportunity for a combination of graded and handicapped competition
Each year, the Walter de Veer Memorial Tournament determines the best State/Territory representative team of bowlers with averages not exceeding 180 in the Men’s Division and 170 in the Women’s Division in a handicapped competition. Each team consists of seven players, with five on the Lanes at any one time.
Participation in the Walter de Veer Memorial Tournament is limited to one team in each of the Men’s and Women’s divisions from the following States and Territories:- Queensland - New South Wales - Victoria - Tasmania - South Australia - Western Australia - Australian Capital Territory - Northern Territory
History of the Walter Rachuig Trophy Tournament
I can only recall two occasions when any of the original rules, which stated that participation was limited to non professional only. As most of the top players in each state were bowling in professional leagues or tournaments that particular rule was quickly abandoned
by Jack Walton
It was not until the 1977 running of the event that it was decided to hold the contest as part of the annual Australian Championships. Until that time the Rachuig Trophy was conducted as a separate tournament bowled each year in late November or early December.
Now not only is the Rachuig Trophy the highlight event of the two week bowling festival that is the National Championships, but it is also a “one of a kind” sporting event, the like of which is played nowhere else in the bowling world.
(adapted from an article by Steve Jones)
It is my very humble view after careful reading of the documents that the de veer event was designed as a representative event for the best State/Territory representative team of bowlers with averages not exceeding 180 in the Men’s Division and 170 in the Women’s Division in a handicapped competition and that Rachuig Trophy did not originally in it’s rules did not include the best or the elite from each state but only was limited to non professional. As most of the top players in each state was bowling in professional leagues or tournament. And I would also like to draw your attention to another following statement a “one of a kind” sporting event, the like of which is played nowhere else in the bowling world
From these statements, I can only draw one conclusion that both events are; for representative state teams, having their own uniqueness as state representative events whether through the scoring methodology of Rachuig or the average restriction for De veer.
Now for the on going statement regarding the right of De veer bowlers wearing of state shirts (with pride) if you accept my conclusions draw from the writing from the TBA web site they have every right to wear them.
As well, I would like to ask, “Why is it that the De veer bowlers appear to be promoting their achievement as a representative, and thus promoting our sport and what is possible to their peers and the social or novice bowler and are being belittle by the elitist bowlers or other representative bowler, where on the surface, other than the possible higher skill level of such bowlers there is very little pride displayed by wear there state shirts to advertise their own achievements and our sport to the wide community?
Also, why the youth representative teams are accepted by Rachuig bowlers as being a representative team even though they are constituted by, mainly, adult bowlers, under an age bracket and possibly lower average? Or conversely a senior representative teams, again possibly with a lower average, again having an age bracket as it defining restriction is? Yet an average restrictive team is viewed as a non representative team?
Awaiting all your comments
Brad
Without trying to sound argumentative, this is actually a very valid question. Rachuig, Youth, and Junior (maybe Senior? I don't know) all bowl scratch, is that the difference?
Jan, evidently you're the only real representation the "elitist snobs" party
has had here (I'm considering myself neutral) - I pose this simple and honest question; Why is disabilities a rep team, and WDV not? By much of this reasoning, if Rachuig is "the" rep team shouldn't it allow anyone who is the best of the best compete, without discrimination of age, average, or disability?
By the by people, I know a lot of you are passionate about this and therefore emotional. I do a lot of analysis at work, and most people I know will tell you I'm not one to speak with malice or emotion. I am neutral on the "Is WDV a state rep" argument, I'm still trying to gather facts to make a decision.
With that in mind, please read my questions as questions, not arguments.
Apology accepted Feral, hope to continue one of these conversations in person some time.
Jeff
With that in mind, please read my questions as questions, not arguments.
Apology accepted Feral, hope to continue one of these conversations in person some time.
Jeff
If we are looking at the Olympics/Commonwealth Games perspective - there are two separate events: one 'standard' (for want of a better word, sorry) Games, and a PWD Games. If we look at it from this perspective, then WDV would be classed as a second tier to the 'standard' competition, not as a 'proper' rep team as such.
Here's MY opinion:
* If there is room for Open - E grade in championship events at NATIONAL level, then there is room for a NATIONAL restricted tournament such as WDV.
* Aside from the arguments about "being called state representatives when they weren't" and "bringing down the title of state reps" etc (different argument altogether) and the "sandbagging" argument (perennial problem in all handicap play), WAS THERE ANYBODY WHO OBJECTED TO THE TOURNAMENT ITSELF?
Waiting for the knives,
Serenity
IrontoSteel
a lot of thoughts on De Veer.
The fact is that the TBA may have made a mistake in cutting WDV, only time will tell.
I support WDV. I bowled both WDV and intercentre challenges. I will never be a open bowler and I believe I am not the only one that knows their skill level. I am happy with my social bowling and occasionally local and state graded tournaments. They are what I like.
Taking away WDV is taking away a dream. Give everyone a chance to stand on lanes with their fellow state WDV team members just after the march on ceremony and see the pride in their faces.
Graded events can be open to questions of dubious averages, but solutions exist. Cure the patient don't take a "they shoot horses don't they" approach.
My thoughts only.
The fact is that the TBA may have made a mistake in cutting WDV, only time will tell.
I support WDV. I bowled both WDV and intercentre challenges. I will never be a open bowler and I believe I am not the only one that knows their skill level. I am happy with my social bowling and occasionally local and state graded tournaments. They are what I like.
Taking away WDV is taking away a dream. Give everyone a chance to stand on lanes with their fellow state WDV team members just after the march on ceremony and see the pride in their faces.
Graded events can be open to questions of dubious averages, but solutions exist. Cure the patient don't take a "they shoot horses don't they" approach.
My thoughts only.
Brenton_Davy
900Global bowler
I did when the DeVeer concept was first mooted and I did so on 2 grounds.
1) The tournament should have been a Youth Scratch Event
2) I objected to 120 average bowlers making themselves out as "State Team" bowlers and the prestige of Rachuig would be diminished.
Was I right to object to the the DeVeer concept? Lets look at the facts as they are now.
1) It was later recognised that there was no pathway from juniors to adults and a Youth Challenge was instituted several years later.
2) I have seen and heard of many cases where DeVeer bowlers have reporesented themselves as "State Team" bowlers to outsiders who have only learned at a later time they they are not elite level players and have found this of concern.
Further the spectator numbers to the Rachuig tournament have dropped off alarmingly since the inception of the DeVeer event and the prestige of Rachuig has dropped off accordingly.
Bowling is the ONLY sport that allows "Graded" state teams. I have mentioned the concept to other sports and they laugh at the concept, stating that state team representation must be only for the elite level players and played on a scratch basis.
TBA have argued to me that DeVeer has brought a lot to the Nationals and this may well be so, but would not a Youth version of Rachuig done the same, especially in lineage and participation numbers?
I am aware that several DeVeer players have used this as a stepping stone to Rachuig and these players I applaud heartily as they have used the event as it was intended. Those who have intentionally "Managed" their averages to ensure they remain eligible for the event, then I am sorry, but the loss of this event is on your heads.
And what do people think is the reason for this?
Cam S
BEEEEEEEEEAVER
Really good point and easily fixed by making it scratch, i cant see too many 120 average bowlers making it if the cut off is a scratch average of 184.
I understand ure point about youth but our sport is different to most others you in the fact most bowlers can be competive right into their 50s look at the senior bowlers in this country. There for i think there needs to be some sort of stepping stone for people outside of the youth age bracket.
I use my own situtation as an example, Im 30 and have been and was out of the sport for 8 years, im back in now and have worked pretty hard in 18 months on my game. I have aspriations to make rachuig sometime in the next 5 years and to be brutally honest i bowled Deveer last year thinkin in its form it would be a great experience for when i was good enough for rachuig. I had a blast but i have to say giving starts of between 20 and in one case 60 in a game isnt much of a stepping stone. i can bowl a day league if i want to do that.
I think if it was reinstated to the nationals it should be a classic tournament and scratch then our sport will get some true value out of it.
johnnybg
Member
With all the views that have been placed so far on this thread,i think that everyone has a valid point to make.Wether we are playing for a region(our state)or a bowling centre,its the comradrie that people are attracted to,even if you aren't in the Rachuig mould,so to speak,doesnt mean that you cant enjoy bowling against the best bowlers, that particular tournament has to offer,even if it is with handicap.
Cam (Ninja299) made a point about bowling against a guy whom he had to give 20 pins too,,,an up too 60 pins,,,but when you think about it,you should already know what your up against,an personally,i welcome the challenge,It would be like coming up against someone like Belmo,You already know that you are a mile behind(apologies to people who take this the wrong way that is intended)but gees i would relish the chance to have a crack,to see how i would go,being so far behind before we have begun the game.And have been there more than once.
As far as i'm concerned,i have always relished the challenge,an this year i will be trying out for Rachuig.Not because of the turmoil that is going on at the moment,but because i believe that bowling in the Walter Deveer Tournament has helped me,in as much as i think that i am prepared as i will ever be,in bowling in the premier teams event that this country will ever have.
There has been lots of comments about the shirts that Deveer bowlers wear,i for one dont claim to be a STATE BOWLER,i say that i represent WA in the restricted team that goes away to whatever state happens to be holding the National Titles that year,because i know that i am not a true STATE BOWLER till i make the Rachuig team,and i truely beleive most Deveer bowlers know this as well,,,,But at the same time,dont blame these bowlers for something that the TBA(or their predesessors)had put in place years before,we only know whats best at the time,but i do think that it is time for a change,an Max's ideas are the best i have heard,lets stop all the bitching,an get back to whats best for bowling in general.
johnnyb
PS:Maybe instead of having WA,,or SA on our shirts to differentiate from the real State team
(which i understand is the main problem),we can have The Sangropers,or Croweaters,or for Victoria we can have ummmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,hmmmmm well the mind boggles,but something nice of course,,,,,,,,,,,,,rofl,,,,,,,,
hey i'm only joking guys,,,,,,
Cam (Ninja299) made a point about bowling against a guy whom he had to give 20 pins too,,,an up too 60 pins,,,but when you think about it,you should already know what your up against,an personally,i welcome the challenge,It would be like coming up against someone like Belmo,You already know that you are a mile behind(apologies to people who take this the wrong way that is intended)but gees i would relish the chance to have a crack,to see how i would go,being so far behind before we have begun the game.And have been there more than once.
As far as i'm concerned,i have always relished the challenge,an this year i will be trying out for Rachuig.Not because of the turmoil that is going on at the moment,but because i believe that bowling in the Walter Deveer Tournament has helped me,in as much as i think that i am prepared as i will ever be,in bowling in the premier teams event that this country will ever have.
There has been lots of comments about the shirts that Deveer bowlers wear,i for one dont claim to be a STATE BOWLER,i say that i represent WA in the restricted team that goes away to whatever state happens to be holding the National Titles that year,because i know that i am not a true STATE BOWLER till i make the Rachuig team,and i truely beleive most Deveer bowlers know this as well,,,,But at the same time,dont blame these bowlers for something that the TBA(or their predesessors)had put in place years before,we only know whats best at the time,but i do think that it is time for a change,an Max's ideas are the best i have heard,lets stop all the bitching,an get back to whats best for bowling in general.
johnnyb
PS:Maybe instead of having WA,,or SA on our shirts to differentiate from the real State team
(which i understand is the main problem),we can have The Sangropers,or Croweaters,or for Victoria we can have ummmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,hmmmmm well the mind boggles,but something nice of course,,,,,,,,,,,,,rofl,,,,,,,,
hey i'm only joking guys,,,,,,
With Rachuig, 95% of the people that make there State Teams are 190+ ave bowlers at the moment. 10 years ago though you had to average 200+ generally if you wanted to make Rachuig teams.
Bringing back De Veer as a scratch tournament under 184 would solve some of the problems for some of the people. You would have the same problem. People averaging under 165 would not have a chance to make De Veer on the same basis De Veeer bowlers cant make Rachuig Teams.
Just an idea.
186+ ave Rachuig Trophy Tournament
166-185 ave De Veer Trophy Tournament
146-165 ave Coburn Trophy Tournament
under 145 ave Popov Trophy Tournament
Run all of the following at the Nationals. Nationals could run for 4 weeks.
State Teams coming out our arse.
Cam S
BEEEEEEEEEAVER
thats alot of people wearing their "state team" shirts to the movies, mall and to restaurants
This is a tad off topic mate, but if you line up at Belmo with it in your head that you're already a mile behind before you start, you've got one hell of a task to take him PLUS a mile.
dunryc
Long Suffering Raiders Fan
Brad,
Addendum to your Rachuig History facts, Back in those days, any event that had cash prizes was considered professional, whether it was league or a tournament. They quickly realised that this would exclude most of the elite bowlers in the country if they imposed it and scrapped it.
I'm not sure if it's a one of a kind event, but it certainly is fairly unique, but rest assured, if similar events are run in other countries, I'd bet that they are run on a scratch basis.
I don't accept your conclusions. They made a mistake when they created the WDV tournament, and they have been trying to rectify it ever since. They have finally take the necessary step to scrap it and replace it with something that has the potential to be bigger, better and more competitive if you'd all stop whining and give it a go. I say again, State shirts belong to State Players that have earned the right to wear them. Your question as to why Rachuig Bowlers don't wear their shirts with pride and promote the sport is because we are too embarrassed to be associated with the WDV bowlers who wear them everywhere and feel that the pride associated with the shirts has been ripped away by giving them to the WDV bowlers.
Youth, Junior and Senior Teams earn their representative strips because they are the best in their age bracket, and they bowl scratch. There is no scope for sandbagging and average management. I think the concept of Youth is fantastic and I wish it had've been around when I came out of Juniors. They have the best of both worlds. They have their own tournaments and they can still bowl in the Adult ranks and continue to improve. By the time they come into Adult fully, they are much better prepared than we were and generally have a much brighter and longer future in the sport.
WDV adds nothing to the value or the perception of State Representation.
Cheers
Jan
dunryc
Long Suffering Raiders Fan
Without trying to sound argumentative, this is actually a very valid question. Rachuig, Youth, and Junior (maybe Senior? I don't know) all bowl scratch, is that the difference?
Jan, evidently you're the only real representation the "elitist snobs" party
By much of this reasoning, if Rachuig is "the" rep team shouldn't it allow anyone who is the best of the best compete, without discrimination of age, average, or disability?
Jeff, Yes. Because they all bowl scratch and there is no potential for sandbagging and abuse.
I honestly don't know anything about the disabilities team and how they are selected or even what format they bowl in, so I'm not prepared to comment on them.
How can you call WDV the best of the best of anything? If a 120 average bowler gets lucky one weekend during the trials and averages 150, does that make him/her better than the 184 average bowler that averages 184 in the trials?
Is a 190 average bowler that has sandbagged their way down to 184 to qualify and then averages 200 in the tournament better than the 160 average bowler that practices after making the team and averages 185 in the tournament? How can you even quantify that? It is a ridiculous comparison. They are enthusiastic, I'll give them that, and most have a genuine interest in the game and some of them even want to improve, but until they bowl scratch, and make their respective Rachuig, Youth or Seniors Team, they will never be considered a Rep player by me. Some of them will never make it, and tough Bikkies. Not everyone gets to Represent.As I've said before, It should be hard to get a State Shirt and earn the respect that goes with it. At the moment, WDV has made a mockery of them.
Jan
Brenton_Davy
900Global bowler
I thought I was being an "elitist snob" too. Must be mellowing in my old age.
I think this is a different scenario because if you look at the Paralympics, people of different disabilities often compete against each other with handicaps that reflect the extent of their disability. Therefore if the disabled State Teams (Oakford Plate, I think) are handicapped, there is reason to allow this.
dunryc
Long Suffering Raiders Fan
Jan, evidently you're the only real representation the "elitist snobs" party
Well, I'm not the only elitist snob that has commented, but apart from some of the South Australian Contingency, the rest have been pretty quiet. The reasons for this are varied. I know a lot of my fellow Rachuig Bowlers feel the same way about WDV as I do, but as to why they haven't posted, I can only guess.
1. They have official affiliation with the TBA so are unable to post as it would be construed as official.
2. They see anything to do with WDV in the title of the forum and ignore it as inconsequential.
3. They don't even read the boards.
4. They don't want to upset anyone so they remain politically correct sitting on the sidelines.
5. They have better things to do than waste time battling against a bunch of people that they don't respect or take seriously.
You'll all be pleased to know that I am rapidly falling into category 5 and probably won't waste my time or energy posting against you anymore. I've said all I have to say on the subject. I look forward to TBA's Official statements when they are forthcoming.
Cheers
Jan
tidal wave
New Member
Jan and others,
Jan"Youth, Junior and Senior Teams earn their representative strips because they are the best in their age bracket, and they bowl scratch."
So what is the difference? Age, so what! Your statement scratch is scratch the best of the best that should mean a scratch rep is exactly that. No difference due to age if they are good enough at 15 or 16, 19 0r 22 or 55 or 70 to be the elite so be it.
The handicap bowler is exactly that the best of their on level based of their average plus handicap… I am not arguing with you over management of average Just about what ppl can represent for to a set criteria and in saying so if there was a classic level the stepping stone approach would be there and no reason for average management by some.
Jan "There is no scope for sandbagging and average management. I think the concept of Youth is fantastic and I wish it had've been around when I came out of Juniors. They have the best of both worlds. They have their own tournaments and they can still bowl in the Adult ranks and continue to improve."
What about the older bowler coming in our sport with the urge or desire to improve and become a rep for their state? ….What you only think the only way is thro juniors? Where do they get their experience from?
jan "By the time they come into Adult fully, they are much better prepared than we were and generally have a much brighter and longer future in the sport."
And what they need more exposure because of age than a adult who takes up our sport at 30 or even 23
Jan "Well, I'm not the only elitist snob that has commented, but apart from some of the South Australian Contingency, the rest have been pretty quiet. The reasons for this are varied. I know a lot of my fellow Rachuig Bowlers feel the same way about WDV as I do, but as to why they haven't posted, I can only guess.
1. They have official affiliation with the TBA so are unable to post as it would be construed as official."
Are these the same people that made the decision? and are unwilling to openly discuss it in a public forum?
Jan "2. They see anything to do with WDV in the title of the forum and ignore it as inconsequential. "
Is it because they are out of touch with either the grass roots of OUR sport and in doing so unlike yourself will to assist in development of others thro mentoring or unaccredited coaching as in earlier posted?
Jan "4. They don't want to upset anyone so they remain politically correct sitting on the sidelines. "
Why not, fearful of the fall out or to be voted out next time around?
Jan "5. They have better things to do than waste time battling against a bunch of people that they don't respect or take seriously. "
Interesting, if they are the elected rep for there centre at state level or higher within tba
You'll all be pleased to know that I am rapidly falling into category 5 and probably won't waste my time or energy posting against you anymore. I've said all I have to say on the subject. I look forward to TBA's Official statements when they are forthcoming.
And we all are awaiting baited breath
cheers
Brad
Jan"Youth, Junior and Senior Teams earn their representative strips because they are the best in their age bracket, and they bowl scratch."
So what is the difference? Age, so what! Your statement scratch is scratch the best of the best that should mean a scratch rep is exactly that. No difference due to age if they are good enough at 15 or 16, 19 0r 22 or 55 or 70 to be the elite so be it.
The handicap bowler is exactly that the best of their on level based of their average plus handicap… I am not arguing with you over management of average Just about what ppl can represent for to a set criteria and in saying so if there was a classic level the stepping stone approach would be there and no reason for average management by some.
Jan "There is no scope for sandbagging and average management. I think the concept of Youth is fantastic and I wish it had've been around when I came out of Juniors. They have the best of both worlds. They have their own tournaments and they can still bowl in the Adult ranks and continue to improve."
What about the older bowler coming in our sport with the urge or desire to improve and become a rep for their state? ….What you only think the only way is thro juniors? Where do they get their experience from?
jan "By the time they come into Adult fully, they are much better prepared than we were and generally have a much brighter and longer future in the sport."
And what they need more exposure because of age than a adult who takes up our sport at 30 or even 23
Jan "Well, I'm not the only elitist snob that has commented, but apart from some of the South Australian Contingency, the rest have been pretty quiet. The reasons for this are varied. I know a lot of my fellow Rachuig Bowlers feel the same way about WDV as I do, but as to why they haven't posted, I can only guess.
1. They have official affiliation with the TBA so are unable to post as it would be construed as official."
Are these the same people that made the decision? and are unwilling to openly discuss it in a public forum?
Jan "2. They see anything to do with WDV in the title of the forum and ignore it as inconsequential. "
Is it because they are out of touch with either the grass roots of OUR sport and in doing so unlike yourself will to assist in development of others thro mentoring or unaccredited coaching as in earlier posted?
Jan "4. They don't want to upset anyone so they remain politically correct sitting on the sidelines. "
Why not, fearful of the fall out or to be voted out next time around?
Jan "5. They have better things to do than waste time battling against a bunch of people that they don't respect or take seriously. "
Interesting, if they are the elected rep for there centre at state level or higher within tba
You'll all be pleased to know that I am rapidly falling into category 5 and probably won't waste my time or energy posting against you anymore. I've said all I have to say on the subject. I look forward to TBA's Official statements when they are forthcoming.
And we all are awaiting baited breath
cheers
Brad
