Deveer vs Rachuig

[taps]

How about this: If TBA thinks that they have to choose between DeVeer and Rachuig then why not get rid of Rachuig (cat amongst pigeons )

Surely, to follow the elitist mode of thought, Rachuig is a "stepping stone" to the Australian team and therefore the overall standard of Rachuig must be an embarassment to the members of the Australian team. Just out of curiosity, what has been the turnover rate of bowlers progressing to international representative teams from Rachuig?

Maybe Rachuig should be considered the middle rung before elite standard.

If Rachuig is so "elite" as certain people keep calling them then why doesn't every single Rachuig bowler fork out their hundreds of dollars and bowl the Brunswick cup (and similar tournaments) every year instead (maybe this does happen for some but surely not for all) and compete against the best and not just the rest.

Another point, was there any consultation with the DeVeer bowlers themselves as to the changing of the format? Did representatives from each state get a say? (not just the managers but the dedicated DeVeer bowlers)

The biggest problem I have is with the elitist attitude of the Rachuig bowlers. If someone is demeaning your fellow bowlers you stand up for them you don't just shrink into the shadows and go "oh well..that just proves that we Rachuig bowlers are better and are the only state reps who matter". Where's the cameraderie? A DeVeer bowler would stand up because that is the spirit of the Deveer champs, bowlers who value friendship and goodwill above everything else.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it THE paramount concern of not just bowling but sport in general to have FUN!!! If an activity is not enjoyable, if you cannot relax and have fun then why do it? If the ideal attitude of an "elite" bowler is to be 100% serious all the time then why would anybody with any sort of people skills want to be a part.

Having said that I'm sure that Rachuig as a collective group do not all possess this elitist attitude. I know several and they are genuinely nice people (so don't all take offensive)

And another thing, how dare certain people claim that DeVeer bowlers are an embarrassment to the concept of representative sport. I know for a fact that these bowlers take great pride in their achievements and so do the people from their home centres. Some would even shout their achievements from the rooftops (if they have roofs and good climbing shoes). Taking certain comments at their word, it would indicate that the only bowlers who are not an embarassment to the sport are those who consistently bowl over 200. That world, I'm sure would be a very lonely place.

It is my understanding that the Walter DeVeer tournament was founded for the bowlers who are not quite at Rachuig level. It is an insult to the man's vision and memory that his tournament (and it will always be his tournament no matter what name it goes by) that the attitude has been taken by the powers at be that Rachuig level is the only one that matters.

Question: Who had the courtesy of informing Mrs DeVeer about these changes? What has been the reaction?

 

[squealer]

Well said Taps.
Sue Wheeler

 

[Grumpy gills]

Nice post Taps.
Bernedette Shelley
DeVeer ~ Team Member of Queensland North 2005 (and proud of it) !!
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a select few!

 

[strop]

Another person who is very passionate about DeVeer.
Interesting comments, as a person who represented ACT on many occasions in DeVeer, I just cant quite place when you bowled in Rachuig for you to make the various comparisons that you have.
Everyone really should stop comparing handicap tournaments with scratch tournaments, not the same thing, just similar up to a point. Rachuig of old was like the ATBSO Challenge these days, where bowlers bowled well, it was very competitive, we had FUN and reasonably good sportsmanship amongst all teams. I agree these days Rachuig has lost a lot of it's appeal in that respect. As far as what you would call "elite" bowlers, a lot cant be bothered bowling Rachuig these days because of rules, politics, and total lack of respect from various people.
You quoted,

And another thing, how dare certain people claim that DeVeer bowlers are an embarrassment to the concept of representative sport.

Not sure why some-one would say that, can't remembering reading that post, perhaps you can refresh my memory on that one.
Are "they" going to say the same when the Disabled have their championships as well!?!
TBA have made a big mistake here, DeVeer doesn't hurt anyone except those few who decide they need to keep there averages low enough to bowl Deveer who obviously aren't good enough to bowl Rachuig. I can't see the point in "sandbagging" for this.
Max has got some good ideas and should have been heard, but TBA has deaf ears and can I also point out that the very same person who this tournament is named after also had those very same ears (rest his sole). Don't take offence to the last bit, but I am one who had to deal with him personally in many ways.
Go the ATBSO.........
Cheers,
Tony.

 

[gjelectrics1]

Strop, a t least one person in a different thread on the same subject said that deveer bowlers were an embarrassement to them

 

[strop]

As well as old, I must be blind,please quote it.
I saw something that said it in around about way.

Tony

 

[taps]

Look at post #17 in the "WALTER DE VEER NATIONAL RESTRICTED CHALLENGE" thread

 

[Feral]

Nice post Taps.
Bernedette Shelley
DeVeer ~ Team Member of Queensland North 2005 (and proud of it) !!
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a select few!

Well said Taps.
Reg Reichel
DeVeer Team Member of Queensland South 2004 (and proud of it too).

 

[strop]

Yes I did read Jan comments, and thought you were referring to that post, bit harsh I thought what he said , and did say it in a round about way.

Still can't answer for his thoughts, even though he's entitled to them.

Good to see your followers thought your comments were good.

Tony

 

[taps]

I just cant quite place when you bowled in Rachuig for you to make the various comparisons that you have.

Thanks for the...um...support/constructive criticism (not sure which). Let me get this straight, I am not passing judgement on Rachuig bowlers individually; in fact I consider many of them to be friends. It remains, however that the opinions of the outside observer appear to be just as relevant to this issue as those coming from within the clique.

You are right, I'm not a Rachuig bowler, perhaps I never will be but does that mean that my observations as someone who has had knowledge of the DeVeer/Rachuig system as a whole for several years now as less relevant? I think not.

I'm not taking offence to your comments Strop and I do look forward to your reply if willing

 

[Wallbanger1]

no question. Rachuig hands down.
if you want to represent your state it has to be Rachuig. From what i've heard about Deveer it seems be more of a social based concept. it seems to me that what TBA have done is open it up a little bit more so more bowlers will have an opportunity to participate. (correct me if you think i'm wrong). i certainly would have a lot of trouble of making Deveer competing with bowlers with handicaps ranging between 40 & 60 with mine being a minute 17.

 

[strop]

Your entitled to your opinion just like every-one else just trying to understand where some of you quotes are coming from....

Surely, to follow the elitist mode of thought, Rachuig is a "stepping stone" to the Australian team and therefore the overall standard of Rachuig must be an embarassment to the members of the Australian team. Just out of curiosity, what has been the turnover rate of bowlers progressing to international representative teams from Rachuig?
Maybe Rachuig should be considered the middle rung before elite standard.
If Rachuig is so "elite" as certain people keep calling them then why doesn't every single Rachuig bowler fork out their hundreds of dollars and bowl the Brunswick cup (and similar tournaments) every year instead (maybe this does happen for some but surely not for all) and compete against the best and not just the rest.

Not sure if I follow you on this one. To follow the elitist thought??
To me I followed tournaments though-out Australia (I was no Jason Belmo, or Ian Bradford) and then bowled rachuig for my state as presumably one of the best we had to offer at the time (with a little luck mind you) and then if you were good enough you would nominate for the Australian team. Isn't that how it goes. I might be wrong.
The Rachuig team to me was supposable the best at open level. Your wore your blazer or state shirt with pride and you tried to do your best. You can't tell me that doesn't come with a little bit of arrogance as well, not enough to say that a person that bowls for the Deveer team doesn't feel the same way, remembering that it cover a broader range of bowlers, in actual fact the majority of bowlers being that the tournament is handicapped.
Your also quote...

he biggest problem I have is with the elitist attitude of the Rachuig bowlers.

I will let you know that not all are like that. Very big statement from you though.
Once again try not to compare, your biggest foe is the TBA.
Cheers
Tony

 

[taps]

OK, is it a case of no more TBA- breakaway time?? A very big call!! :idea: :?: O

I enjoy generating controversy, it's fun!! :angel:

 

[zoedog]

Hi Sue

You're up late putting the cat amoungst the pigeons!

Angy Campbell

PS. As you know I am a new bowler (only started last year). Love the game, and I am keen to improve (can't happen soon enough!). I have a sense from the posts thus far on this subject that those who are fortunate enough to have averages high enough to compete in scratch tournaments have an expectation that those of us who bowl WDV should better ourselves to a level where we can roll-off for Rachuig...........BRING IT ON!!!! however, my problem is this: as a newcomer to this sport I am very disappointed with the lack of ACTIVE development for the sport of bowling for the average bowler in the ACT (can't comment on other states).

I have scoured the TBA site and this site for information about coaching clinics for bowlers, development courses etc but couldn't find any. In fact I could only find a handful of qualified, accredited coaches in the ACT listed on the TBA site. These coaches (from what I have been told) are already fully committed or too busy to coach. Should 20+ WDV bowlers decide to get serious coaching, who would do it? What plans do the TBA have for developing the sport at a state level?

Mr Popov said in his message on the TBA site: "The Australian Sports Commission has reconfirmed its support of Tenpin Bowling Australia by committing Sport Development and High Performance funding to our sport for the next four years. In previous years we have focussed mainly on the area of High Performance and spent less time and money on Sport Development. As we are not a medal sport in either the Commonwealth or Olympic Games we were not eligible for the same level of High Performance funding that we had received in previous years. However, we have received a sizeable increase in our Sport Development funding which will see us introduce programs that will aim to increase bowler numbers and sport participation and thus benefit our industry as a whole."

What does that mean for someone like me? Will I have access (local) to programs which will help me improve? Will they support local centres in holding more tournaments so that we get more experience in bowling in competitions? Can't see too many events on the 2007 calendar to date to suggest that.

OK natural talent is one thing, but you don't get to qualify for and compete in tournaments like Rachuig just by sheer will and enthusiam alone....you need to put in the hard yards (time, money, practice, practice, and more practice), but above all you need coaching! It's a shame that ACT bowlers (including Rachuig bowlers) have to travel interstate to receive coaching.

I wait with anticipation for Mr Popov's announcement of what they have planned for the future. However, Mr Popov, as a registered player with the TBA I expect to have a say or be asked what it is I need or would like to support me in my effort to become a better bowler.

Angy Campbell

 

[edfleminglanes]

What a great post coming from someone so new to the sport.
I will be waiting for Alex reply on this. Althou lots of bowlers are still waiting for replies to previous questions posted on Total Bowling. Of course if Alex is overseas (yet again) then we have no hope of receiving an answer to Angy's questions.

 

[Sumo]

Joe
To get an answer from the TBA, the post from Angy needs to go into the TBA forum. The TBA don't monitor other forums or respond to posts in other forums.
In my opinion, the availability of coaching, for all levels of bowler, needs to be more organised.
Some of the initial criteria are:
1. Accessibility
2. Affordability
3. At a suitable level for the Bowler
4. By a qualified Coach
5. Compensates the Coaches time
Unless the coaching is done in a group situation, it is very difficult to meet the necessary criteria. I know of 4 coaching groups around Melbourne and I'm sure there are similar groups in other locations. Personally, I tap into a very good Coach one on one, but he is very busy, so it is not as often as I would like.
Just my two cents worth.
Sumo
Peter Wills

 

[edfleminglanes]

Hi Peter, I am well aware of the "TBA Forum" however there is not too many answers by TBA and when they do reply it is like our Politicians plenty to say but not really answering the question asked. I agree with you on the coaching side and there are not enough qualiffied coaches to help bowlers who want to improve regardless of averages. I know that Patrick B and Wayne P can only do so much we have Matt Garvin trying to do his thing over in the Western Suburbs, but there does not seem too many other coaches around for the masses. Maybe someone like Patrick needs to stop coaching the bowlers and start coaching the coaches.......At least that way we would have plenty of qualified coaches. The reason I mentioned Patrick is because he is most experienced and professionally set up to handle this.

 

[dunryc]

Oh Goody, now we have 3 threads going on essentially the same subject. Maybe you can have an individual thread for each of the splinter groups that's going to form.

Surely, to follow the elitist mode of thought, Rachuig is a "stepping stone" to the Australian team and therefore the overall standard of Rachuig must be an embarassment to the members of the Australian team. Just out of curiosity, what has been the turnover rate of bowlers progressing to international representative teams from Rachuig?

Your argument is flawed. This would only hold sway if we were talking about a handicap/restricted Australian Team. It is a natural progression of thought that the best in Australia would be selected from the best the states have to offer. I don't have exact statistics to back me up, but I would guess that at least 90 percent of the Australian Team Members have bowled Rachuig at some stage. I don't know if it is still the case, but at least nominating for Rachuig and completing the trials, used to be a pre-requisite for National Team eligibility.

If Rachuig is so "elite" as certain people keep calling them then why doesn't every single Rachuig bowler fork out their hundreds of dollars and bowl the Brunswick cup (and similar tournaments) every year instead (maybe this does happen for some but surely not for all) and compete against the best and not just the rest.

I wish this was the case, but for many reasons, some Rachuig bowlers don't bowl in the national scratch tournaments, although a lot of them do. On the converse, some of the Elite bowlers, don't bowl Rachuig, mostly because there is no money in it, or due to leave constraints but also in my opinion, because tournaments like the DeVeer have taken the shine off representing your State. Rachuig suffers because of this, in a perfect world, Rachuig would truly be the best of the best competing, but until we get some Pride back into the State shirts, and perhaps some financial incentive, that's not going to happen.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it THE paramount concern of not just bowling but sport in general to have FUN!!! If an activity is not enjoyable, if you cannot relax and have fun then why do it? If the ideal attitude of an "elite" bowler is to be 100% serious all the time then why would anybody with any sort of people skills want to be a part..

How much fun do you think Tiger Woods has while he's competing? You should enjoy bowling, (why would we do it otherwise) but if you are going to compete at State or National level, then serious is the attitude you MUST have.

And another thing, how dare certain people claim that DeVeer bowlers are an embarrassment to the concept of representative sport. I know for a fact that these bowlers take great pride in their achievements and so do the people from their home centres. Some would even shout their achievements from the rooftops (if they have roofs and good climbing shoes). Taking certain comments at their word, it would indicate that the only bowlers who are not an embarassment to the sport are those who consistently bowl over 200. That world, I'm sure would be a very lonely place.

As Tony said, I didn't exactly say that but it was implied. The embarrassment comes from the misguided perception that they are State players, for what is essentially a "fun" tournament to use your words. To have bowlers intentionally keep their average low so that they can remain eligible goes against everything this tournament should be about. The fact that a lot of DeVeer bowlers constantly wear their shirts and jackets and promote themselves as being State Players is what really detracts from the sport, and again, is one of the reasons that the better players want nothing to do with State Representation. I never said that anyone that can't average 200 is an embarrassment to the sport. I love bowling, I've put a lot back into it over the 30 years that I've been involved. I've coached and run practice sessions, run pro shops, I encourage everyone to improve when I get the chance. What I do find embarrassing is sandbaggers giving off the perception that they are the best our State has to offer. It's one thing to have a bit of pride in making a State team, even a farcical one like the DeVeer, but give it a rest people, stop pretending like it means anything.

It is an insult to the man's vision and memory that his tournament (and it will always be his tournament no matter what name it goes by) that the attitude has been taken by the powers at be that Rachuig level is the only one that matters.

This tournament was never his vision. It was named in his honour for his contributions to the sport. From what I remember of Walter, he would be turning in his grave to be associated with it in its current form.

TBA has done the right thing and opened the WDV up to make it an open team event, but taken away the State team persona. No-one is stopping you from competing, and if anything, they have increased the potential for you all to have fun, and develop your friendships by expanding. They have just rightly taken away the State against State focus, but again, no-one is stopping you from having roll-offs and entering a team from your state, region or even centre. You just won't be wearing a State Shirt when you get there.

I'm sure a lot of my comments have irked some of you WDV devotees, but I won't apologise for my beliefs that a State Shirt should be reserved for the best in the State, and not tarnished by it's association with a second rate pretend tournament.

Cheers
Jan

 

[weggy]

I don't have exact statistics to back me up, but I would guess that at least 90 percent of the Australian Team Members have bowled Rachuig at some stage.

Just a clarification question...

Where exactly did the other 10 percent come from? Walter De Veer? Or people with NO previous nationals experience?

How much fun do you think Tiger Woods has while he's competing? You should enjoy bowling, (why would we do it otherwise) but if you are going to compete at State or National level, then serious is the attitude you MUST have.

Agree totally. BUT there should be equal parts of seriousness and having a good time. THIS is what WDV has achieved over many years - competitive spirit with an opportunity to network with others.

 

[Cam S]

I wish this was the case, but for many reasons, some Rachuig bowlers don't bowl in the national scratch tournaments, although a lot of them do. On the converse, some of the Elite bowlers, don't bowl Rachuig, mostly because there is no money in it, or due to leave constraints but also in my opinion, because tournaments like the DeVeer have taken the shine off representing your State. Rachuig suffers because of this, in a perfect world, Rachuig would truly be the best of the best competing, but until we get some Pride back into the State shirts, and perhaps some financial incentive, that's not going to happen.

Thats the sad thing, it seems many of the real stars of our sport don't roll off anymore and you can understand, to pay between $1000 and $2000 to represent your state is a joke. Surely with the amount it costs each bowler to sanction a percentage of that could be put away to pay for state teams, that way rachuig could again attract the very best in each state.

I'm sure a lot of my comments have irked some of you WDV devotees, but I won't apologise for my beliefs that a State Shirt should be reserved for the best in the State, and not tarnished by it's association with a second rate pretend tournament.
Cheers
Jan

Other sports have second string state and even national sides, Australia A in the cricket is a prime example. I think deveer under its old form as fun as it was, leaves a big gap between itself and rachiug, too be a true stepping stone to Rachuig the average limit should be inline with classic and it should be scratch. That is what is so good about Max's proposal it looks after the current level deveer bowlers as well as those like myself who aspire to one day represent our state in rachuig but are currently beneath that level.

I dont understand why TBA would ignore a proposal that would automatically increase nationals entrys.