Deveer vs Rachuig

[Cam S]

Another flawed argument. Australia A is a stepping stone into the Australian Team. Many players have gone on to represent Australia after an outing in the Australia A team. It is effectively a practice squad for the National Team. WDV Isn't! For your argument to have any validity, Australia A cricket would have to be a handicap team. No one with a batting average over 35 can play and you get all get 20 runs start when you go out to bat. I'm not aware of any other sports having second string state sides, but if they do, I bet they are scratch sides, or players that are on the fringe of making their respective state sides.
Cheers
Jan

your preaching to the converted

i agree Deveer or any tournament that is a stepping stone for rachuig should be scratch.
Before 2005 i had been away from the sport for 8 years and i have to say i was suprised that not only WDV but restricted tournaments in general were all handicaped. Really what purpose does it serve if the average is under a certain level.

 

[double_d]

exactly it should be scratch
would you handicap rachuig and have a cut of 200 average and up
i dont think people would like this
the deveer should be scratch
what i cant understand is when i bowled last year in deveer why there were male bowlers with 150 - 160 averages
surely their not the best bowlers under 184 average in there state
maybe some of the problem is that the average is taken and regraded over a few tournys
maybe your try out average should be used so when people try their best to try out for the team the dont get much of a chance to sandbag ( much of anyway )
this way they dont get 4 more oppertunities to bring their average down

daniel d

 

[Ice]

exactly it should be scratch
would you handicap rachuig and have a cut of 200 average and up
i dont think people would like this
the deveer should be scratch
what i cant understand is when i bowled last year in deveer why there were male bowlers with 150 - 160 averages
surely their not the best bowlers under 184 average in there state
maybe some of the problem is that the average is taken and regraded over a few tournys
maybe your try out average should be used so when people try their best to try out for the team the dont get much of a chance to sandbag ( much of anyway )
this way they dont get 4 more oppertunities to bring their average down

daniel d

Scratch is definately the way to go. Once roll offs are over you have months and months to train and practise and improve your teams performance......... gives bowlers an incentive and motivation to attend and work hard at those compulsory training camps.

 

[dunryc]

Jan, you say that you have put a lot back in to the sport over the last 30 years, which I do not doubt, would you be prepared to put some more back in to it and help some ex De Veer bowlers get up to Rachuig standard by coaching them? for example me?

Clem,
I've always been willing to help bowlers who are genuinely interested in getting better, however I don't have any formal coaching qualifications so if it's professional coaching you are after, then you should seek it elsewhere. I am more than happy to come and watch you practice, make suggestions and talk to you about bowling, equipment and the mental game though if you want.

Jan

 

[dunryc]

This would have to be the most self centered thing I have read in my life! Jan who do you think you are.

How is it self-centered? Highlighting the reasons why WDV is getting so much flak and having you prove my points is hardly self-centered.

The Winner is always part of the answer
And the answer is get rid of WDV.

The Loser is always part of the problem
Sandbagging to stay eligible for WDV

The Winner always has a programme
Learn to bowl better. Practice. Gain knowledge!

The Loser always has an excuse
Not good enough for Rachuig so I'll stay in WDV

The Winner sees an answer for any problem
Again, get rid of WDV.

The Loser sees a problem of any answer.
Average getting too high, sandbag

The Winner says It may be difficult but is's possible
Anything worthwhile is difficult. Like making your State Team should be!

The Loser says It may be possible but it's too difficult
I'd have to work too hard and practice to make Rachuig, I'll stay in WDV.

My DeVeer team mates and I were WINNERS AND WE WERE PROUD TO REPRESENT OUR STATE
Which are you Jan???
[/QUOTE]
And back to the original problem, and again, thank you for proving my point, You are not State Representatives!

Which am I? I am someone that has earned the right to bowl President's Shield and Rachuig and represent my State through 30 years of bowling so that makes me a winner. I'm not an elitist. Hell, I'm hardly even a competitive scratch bowler anymore, but I am passionate about the game I've spent the best part of my life competing in. Not every one gets to be the best. It should be difficult to make your State team. That's a reality in life. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try. I still bowl in scratch tournaments even with the knowledge that I am not good enough to truly compete anymore, but I get pleasure out of being out there with the best and giving it my all.

I agree that there is a fundamental issue of where to go for improvement, and how do you get yourself up to the next level. It was the same when I came out of juniors. You only get out of it what you put in. I spent hours watching the great bowlers bowl and talking to them, gleaning what information I could out of them and then practicing to put it to use. No-one is going to hand it to you. Go practice, find a coach, read books, watch DVD's... whatever it takes. Don't whinge about not being good enough for Rachuig so I'll pretend I'm a State player and wear my WDV shirt with Pride!

Jan

 

[CHIN]

Well said Jan,

I was going to stay out of this, was having to much fun reading it.

What did bowlers strive for before WDV came along.

Maybe now WDV is gone, people that were just happy enough to get to that level and stay their by sandbagging to keep their averages low enough might have the incentive & put in the extra work required to become good enough to make their State's Rachuig Team again.

I cant see the point in taking up a sport if your going to be happy with giving it a 1/2 arsed go.

Grow up people, get over it, its finished, gone. It was good while it lasted. Their have been problems with WDV since the start. Instead of blaming everybody else because its been cancelled how about looking inside your own ranks and blame the people that have abused it.

If whining & whinging was an Olympic sport Australia could field Gold Medal winning teams from the WDV ranks.

 

[tidal wave]

When will the elitest Rachuig group realise that the ppl who bowl de veer have the right to still be called State reps because it is a totally different format ... It was a handcapped event ....Are the only leagues bowled scratch leagues???? I think not .... How many of the Rachuig elite won their handcapped leagues by bowling scratch ??... and Jan not to put too fine a point on the real difference between de veer and Rachuig locally ..last years state teams challenge I believe between the de veer males and the rachuig males there was about 1000 pins difference over 13 games of 5 man teams scatch and on average 15 pins per game per bowler .... In real terms ... one open frame to a strike

 

[gjelectrics1]

Clem,
I've always been willing to help bowlers who are genuinely interested in getting better, however I don't have any formal coaching qualifications so if it's professional coaching you are after, then you should seek it elsewhere. I am more than happy to come and watch you practice, make suggestions and talk to you about bowling, equipment and the mental game though if you want.
Jan

Thanks for the offer Jan, I will take that up if the next week or so. But you also highlighted something that Mike said just before Christmas, That the Rachuig bowlers are more than willing to help bowlers who genuinley want to improve and represent their state at the "HIGHEST" level. All they have to do is ask

 

[alexnjudy]

Like Chin said..
The biggest downfall of Deveer was the whinging and whinning by their own bowlers not TBA.
TBA took action to fix the problem but their decision this time abit extreme i feel. All it needs to do is get rid of the "sandbaggers"! Some of them been "sandbagging" for years lol. Everything else is fine
Rachuig....leave them alone. They are your best and you should be proud of each and everyone of them.
My personal opinion and i am entitled to one.
Cheers,
Alex

 

[Brenton_Davy]

When will the elitest Rachuig group realise that the ppl who bowl de veer have the right to still be called State reps because it is a totally different format ... It was a handcapped event ....

Bowling is the only sport I can find that allows competitors who are not at the elite level of that sport to be able to claim state representation. EVERY other sport requires that you be the best available player under the selection criteria. No other sport caters for a less than elite level state team. You don't see 25 handicap golfers playing for their state in a national comp, there is no B Grade Darts state team, no midweek lawn bowls state team.

For those who claim Australia "A" cricket teams are national teams, they are not presented with baggy green caps, they are not listed in Cricket Australias list of test players UNLESS they have graduated to the level of the test team. To compare Australia A teams to De veer teams would be an insult to an Australia "A" cricketer.

Is it not what representative level sport is about? Reaching the pinnacle of the sport in your state/country/age group/sex. The only exception is with disabilities teams, and they are the elite performers within their range of disability so as such they still fall within the above criteria.

 

[strop]

here here.

The biggest thing I find in life is people excepting the truth.

cheers

P.S. I just don't agree with the way TBA has done this though.................
But I never excepted anything less from them.............Why change now. - hey!

 

[dunryc]

When will the elitest Rachuig group realise that the ppl who bowl de veer have the right to still be called State reps because it is a totally different format ... It was a handcapped event ....Are the only leagues bowled scratch leagues???? I think not .... How many of the Rachuig elite won their handcapped leagues by bowling scratch ??... and Jan not to put too fine a point on the real difference between de veer and Rachuig locally ..last years state teams challenge I believe between the de veer males and the rachuig males there was about 1000 pins difference over 13 games of 5 man teams scatch and on average 15 pins per game per bowler .... In real terms ... one open frame to a strike

Brad,
As usual, you are missing the point entirely. It doesn't matter if it's a different format. How often do any of you mention that. All people see is the State Team shirt that you constantly wear. It's the perception that you present and promote. Oh sure, the fine print says something about it being restricted or handicapped or whatever, but for most of the populace, they don't know any different.

Over the course of a long season, the cream will invariably rise to the top, even in a handicapped league. Oh sure, you'll get spanked every now and then when some 160 average bowler averages 200 at you, but over the long haul, that generally evens out and the better bowlers still win although it's a lot harder from the top.

And finally, your comparison of the DeVeer team and Rachuig during the Team Challenge (That none of us would've bowled in if it wasn't compulsory) only goes to prove that they don't belong in De Veer anymore so are probably sandbagging to stay there. Who knows? With a bit of extra effort and practice, some of your De Veer bowlers could possibly make the transition to Rachuig if they put their mind to it.

Jan

 

[zoedog]

More from the new comer to the sport! (fresh eyes on an old and it seems an insolvable problem!)

I would like to reiterate my point made in post 14. As a low average bowler, I want the opportunity to compete in level appropriate tournaments to gain experience, watch other bowlers, and immerse myself in the atmosphere of competitive sport. Regular local tournaments would be ideal with a national tournament once a year to get to compete and learn from a larger populas of bowlers. I don't think this is an unreasonable expectation from someone wanting to fully experience their new found sport.

Now, here is where I think things have got a bit muddled...SEMANTICS.......If you hold a level appropriate tournament for a large cohort of bowlers (handicapped) and do it once a year, and get people from different states to compete in the one place ...you got yourself a nationals competition. The people attending this national tournament are representing their state. (and that's a no brainer people). I don't care what you call it, I don't care what you print on the shirts, I don't care if some bowlers make a career of attending..........I JUST WANT THE OPPORTUNITY TO ATTEND!!!!

Here is the other problem my naive eyes have picked up on: The TBA is not doing enough to bridge the gap between the aspiring bowler and the bowler who has through a lot of hard work made it to a level where they can compete in scratch tournaments. And I don't just mean a tournament to bridge the gap. I am talking about that intangible thing that brings people together...respect. Trying to make one group happy by upsetting another group is counterproductive. Find a way to bring the two together. A big ask YOU BET! But the effort would have to worth it in the end (for the sake of the sport!). Here's how I think the TBA could start this off.....talk to bowlers from both groups, together, as one group. Once you get some of the old resentments, attitudes etc blown off, you may start to get to something worthwhile.

Here's my suggestion of one way to start mending bridges. If you were to hold a level appropriate, national competition for bowlers from all states, hold it at the same time as the Rachuig bowlers are in town (overlap them). Book two venues. When the first comp is doing their squads and killing time in between, the other could be doing competition proper and vica versa. That way each can support each other. I could think of nothing worse than competing in a national tournament and not having the support you deserve.

When you attend nationals you pay a lot of money to travel interstate, let alone the time you have to take off. To extend that to be able to support the other teams from your state is generally not possible for most bowlers. This circumstance should not be seen as a snub or a show of disrespect for the other "state" team. Unfortunately the way the tournaments have been organised has done nothing but exactly that.

I think that a complete overhaul of the way tournaments (local and national) are held in Australia is way overdue. Bring bowlers together TBA, not give them reasons to be at each others throats. We have a lot to learn from each other........but you have to open to it first. That's your job MR POPOV.

Angy Campbell

 

[CHIN]

While I totally agree with Strop about the way TBA has handled the matter.

Maybe if the WDV bowlers put as much effort into practice & improving their game as they do complaining on this forum they wouldnt need De Veer.

Its obviously easier to knock the bowlers who have put in the effort over the years to get to the level where they are able to represent their State & Country than put in the hard work yourselves to get to the same level.

 

[gjelectrics1]

While I totally agree with Strop about the way TBA has handled the matter.
Maybe if the WDV bowlers put as much effort into practice & improving their game as they do complaining on this forum they wouldnt need De Veer.
Its obviously easier to knock the bowlers who have put in the effort over the years to get to the level where they are able to represent their State & Country than put in the hard work yourselves to get to the same level.

It is called the "Tall Poppy Syndrome" is'nt it?

 

[CHIN]

It is called the "Tall Poppy Syndrome" is'nt it?

Like I said before,

Its obviously easier to knock the bowlers who have put in the effort over the years to get to the level where they are able to represent their State & Country than put in the hard work yourselves to get to the same level.

 

[Bowling Balls Australia]

Some people here, Chin & Jan included are missing one vital point.

The vast majority of restricted class bowlers are short on one element - TALENT. I do not mean this disrespectfully as I am the classic example of it, but the majority of us were not born with the ability to consistently put the ball on the same spot every time, nor to put adequate hand in the ball to maximise it's entry into the pocket, nor power - nor WHATEVER.

We have been blessed with a desire to enjoy the game and to compete where we can at our level, but that is about it. Many of 'our standard' bowlers have done what is suggested and had coaching, practised hard, listened to the right people, watched videos and DVDs etc - but it comes back to one thing - if you ain't got it, you ain't got it !!!!!!

Many of us have taken up the sport later in our lives, and certainly have not grown up in bowling centres where one can develop a game at an early age. Personally, I am in awe of what the better bowlers can do, and sometimes wish I had the opportunity, time, money and ABILITY to compete at that level, but the cold hard facts are that I, along with 80% or more of your committed league bowlers, do not have what it takes to get to that level.

So let's keep it in perspective, congratulations to those who have got IT, and have got to where they are, but bear in mind the vast majority of us will not have the talent to get there, and stop shoving it in everyone's faces.

Max

 

[CHIN]

Some people here, Chin & Jan included are missing one vital point.

The vast majority of restricted class bowlers are short on one element - TALENT. I do not mean this disrespectfully as I am the classic example of it, but the majority of us were not born with the ability to consistently put the ball on the same spot every time, nor to put adequate hand in the ball to maximise it's entry into the pocket, nor power - nor WHATEVER.

We have been blessed with a desire to enjoy the game and to compete where we can at our level, but that is about it. Many of 'our standard' bowlers have done what is suggested and had coaching, practised hard, listened to the right people, watched videos and DVDs etc - but it comes back to one thing - if you ain't got it, you ain't got it !!!!!!

Many of us have taken up the sport later in our lives, and certainly have not grown up in bowling centres where one can develop a game at an early age. Personally, I am in awe of what the better bowlers can do, and sometimes wish I had the opportunity, time, money and ABILITY to compete at that level, but the cold hard facts are that I, along with 80% or more of your committed league bowlers, do not have what it takes to get to that level.

So let's keep it in perspective, congratulations to those who have got IT, and have got to where they are, but bear in mind the vast majority of us will not have the talent to get there, and stop shoving it in everyone's faces.

Max

Couldnt agree more Max, all the practice & coaching in the world is not going to help some people. Like you said if you aint got it, you aint got it. But their are bowlers out there bowling De Veer with the ability to get to the highest level if they were willing to do the hard work & not just stay mediocre.

From what i've read on this post so far their is a far bigger % of WDV bowlers "shoving it in everyone's faces " of the Rachuig bowlers. It's not Rachuig that has cancelled the WDV tournament, it's TBA.

Aim your attacks at them.

 

[dunryc]

Some people here, Chin & Jan included are missing one vital point.

The vast majority of restricted class bowlers are short on one element - TALENT. I do not mean this disrespectfully as I am the classic example of it, but the majority of us were not born with the ability to consistently put the ball on the same spot every time, nor to put adequate hand in the ball to maximise it's entry into the pocket, nor power - nor WHATEVER.

We have been blessed with a desire to enjoy the game and to compete where we can at our level, but that is about it. Many of 'our standard' bowlers have done what is suggested and had coaching, practised hard, listened to the right people, watched videos and DVDs etc - but it comes back to one thing - if you ain't got it, you ain't got it !!!!!!

Many of us have taken up the sport later in our lives, and certainly have not grown up in bowling centres where one can develop a game at an early age. Personally, I am in awe of what the better bowlers can do, and sometimes wish I had the opportunity, time, money and ABILITY to compete at that level, but the cold hard facts are that I, along with 80% or more of your committed league bowlers, do not have what it takes to get to that level.

So let's keep it in perspective, congratulations to those who have got IT, and have got to where they are, but bear in mind the vast majority of us will not have the talent to get there, and stop shoving it in everyone's faces.

Max

I'm not missing the point at all Max. I know potential, talent and ability play a major part in all this, that's why I said, not everyone gets to be the best. Only a very small minority in any sport get to elite status and represent their states and countries and that's the way it should be. Handing out State Team shirts to WDV players cheapens the sport, the shirts and the pride that should go with them.
I encourage everyone to bowl, gain knowledge and experience but I know that sheer willpower and desire isn't going to get you to the top if you don't have some natural ability as well. I'm not shoving the lack of ability in peoples faces. I'm shoving the lack of respect for the people who have put in the time and effort to become the best in the WDV bowlers faces who think that their participation in WDV makes them a State Rep. WDV could run 10 tournaments and interstate challenges a year for all I care, just don't call yourselves State Representatives. Angy says it's a matter of Semantics and I may be overly pedantic on this point but that title is and should be reserved for the best players in the country.

Jan

 

[desmondo]

I had no intention of posting on here but feel that I can no longer stand idly by and let this debate continue without putting in some contribution.

I expect to be howled down for my comments but please at least read them before yelling.

I am about a 190 average bowler, not bad, not brilliant. I am probably unlikely to make a Rauchig team for a number of reasons (time to commit to the sport etc etc). I certainly do not want to sandbag to make a DeVeer team. I am an active (if somewhat in the background) supporter of bowling in South Australia.

I know that De Veer bowlers are very proud and work very hard to improve their game. No-one seriously questions their commitment or devotion to the game.

Howver, I find it astonishing that people with averages of 140 go around saying they made a state team (De veer). I have heard from many people outside of the sport who know someone who has made the state team. When I question them, I often find out it is a De Veer bowler. they don't say they made a restricted team, they have said to others they made THE State team.

A touring team put together of C grade cricketers competing against other C grade cricketers would not call themselves a state team.

We have junior teams, youth teams, senior teams and adult teams. That is it!! De Veer can not nor should it ever be seen to be a state team.

The non bowling people think it is ridiculous that a restricted team can call itself a state team. In this context, the De veer concept truly damages our sport.

I think there are two reasons why this confusion occurs. Firstly, De Veer bowlers hve shirts that look and feel like State Shirts. If they wear these shirts next to Rauchig or Shield bowler, they look the same to most people (including about 75% of the people in our sport). Secondly, they are often referred to as the State De Veer team.

If the shirts were different and they were called a development squad, how would perceptions be then? As a 190 average bowler, I find it upsetting to be left in limbo. However, a development squad, competing at a national competition with grading like in Max's proposal might be acceptable to all.

I could go on for a lot longer but you get the general idea.

Des Wragg

PS: I wonder what the sandbaggers would do if there were no state reference to a De veer team?