Deveer vs Rachuig

Max wrote:

The vast majority of restricted class bowlers are short on one element - TALENT. I do not mean this disrespectfully as I am the classic example of it, but the majority of us were not born with the ability to consistently put the ball on the same spot every time, nor to put adequate hand in the ball to maximise it's entry into the pocket, nor power - nor WHATEVER.

I did not have IT.

When I started out I was, as one noted coach of the day put it, "Like a cow with a cup of tea". I did have the time and the opportunity, but hardly the money, to try to improve. I was fortunate to hook up with one of the very few coaches of the time that I could trust to undertake major surgery on my game. What is seen now is NOTHING like I used to bowl, and trust me, no conventional techniques could be used to fix what I had. Part of the problem is there are too many "book" coaches out there who can't work outside the square when it comes to unconventional techniques and body shapes. That is the reason most people can't reach a high level through coaching. But that is another story for another future thread.

Too many bowlers have taken the "easy" way towards state representation, even to the point of manipulating the handicap system to ensure they don't improve!!!!! This is why state representation can only be truly done on a scratch basis.
 
Brenton, your post is Spot on, I can't stand these "Cornflake Box" coaches who don't have any practical experience.
Also Des, totally agree with you too on all points.
Cheers
Tony.
 
Max wrote:
I did not have IT.
When I started out I was, as one noted coach of the day put it, "Like a cow with a cup of tea".


WOW, you got it said so nicely,

Mine was "Give up now, you suck" ;) LOL

With the right guidance, I know every Deveer bowler in Victoria (Can only speak for those I know) has the ability to make it to the top level. It's whether or not they want to put in the hard yards to make it to the top that's the difference.

I know many eventually want to make their potential, but I believe Deveer and its cap may have even held these bowlers back from reaching the top, as they have enjoyed it so much.

Now I'm not for or against this move by the TBA, however I do believe this move could give these Deveer standard bowlers a damn good excuse to become everything they can and reach their long term goals quicker.

Perhaps now they may seek out move effective avenues to increase their ability?
 
desmondo i agree with you there a development team/tounry is a great idea. As like you i am now mid 190s avg bowler with the occasional 200+ avg in tourneys. but a development scratch tourney aimed at the say 180 + bowlers is whats needed. it would be a true stepping stone to get to rachuig. And not being called a state team would bridge alot of complications between people and the sport..

Im not trying to bag the 140 avg bowlers but as max said if ya dont have it ya dont. i know i could be alot better. Im stuborn and like my ways, but till now also havent had the money to put into the sport thats why this year im doing alot more.

but i do beleive that at the nationals there needs to be a tourney to cater for the lower avg bowlers who make up 80% of the bowlers in australia. Maxes idea was great and it did that. but i beleive that you should drop the top tier and have the development tourney of 180+ bowlers only.

always frustrated me in my last deveer i had a 196 avg(was a talking point in melbourne) to bowl a 140 avg bowler its easy for them to get a 20+ higher then avg game but alot harder for me to do the same thing.

but hey hopefully we can bring our sport back together and go forward. but i fear all this is on deaf ears where it counts.
 
strop and brenton know any of these non book "cornflake box" coaches in brissy that have time to spare? :) i have serious non trust in coaches after some experiances with non named coaches.

I have to this day not been properly coached and basicly taught myself from watching top bowlers bowl.
 
Okay, I have been reading these posts over my husband's shoulders and have come to these conclusions of my own and I don't give a toss who does or doesn't agree with me.:wink:
DeVeer bowlers need not take everything posted here so personally, it is the system under question.
No one has posted anywhere that ALL DeVeer bowlers sandbag or strive to keep their averages low, so stop bringing it up.
You cannot in any way compare scratch and handicap tournaments - there is NO comparison.
There is no "step up" to Rachuig except for drive, practice, ability and scratch tournament experience.
Any bowler who fits the criteria can be fortunate enough to bowl well in the roll offs and make the DeVeer team no matter how low their average, only a very small percentage of bowlers have the ability to bowl well enough to qualify for the Rachuig Team. (Yes the standard has dropped but it is still the best of those who wanted to try out).
We have representatives who bowl in the SA Restricted Team, the SA Disabled Team, the SA Deaf Association Team, the SA DeVeer Team but there is only 1 actual STATE TEAM, the Rachuig Team.
All team representative's shirts and jackets should be a completely different look, colour and style than that of the Rachuig Team's uniforms which should be instantly recognizable as such.
I have and will never bowl in DeVeer or Rachuig, I like to bowl but want to keep it simple. My average is too high for DeVeer and even if I did get good enough to bowl Rachuig, (which with the correct guidance I could), I am not prepared to do what the TBA would ask me to do.
I am content being the average league bowler and supporting my husband in his bowling pursuits.
 
One minor question regarding all these, if I qualify for Rachuig with a 170 average (below the cut-off for De Veer ladies) and make the team does that mean I have more "right" to wear a "state" uniform and say I have made a state team than if I bowl in De Veer with the same average? :confused: :confused:

I agree that a few of us have taken some of the comments rather personally, but after hearing these comments for several years it is no wonder. Yes, we should all be taking the fight to the TBA and not to each other, but perhaps some of the "better" bowlers could help us out with the TBA and not just stand back and say a job well done.

You will find that a lot of the WDV bowlers do not state or even imply they are the best of the best for their state, they are representing their state in De Veer, not just the entire sport of bowling.....at least, I always did. When people asked I would tell them that I made the ACT team in the B Grade, meant I was nearly there, but still had some work to do. Thought that was what it was all about
 
quote. -
One minor question regarding all these, if I qualify for Rachuig with a 170 average (below the cut-off for De Veer ladies) and make the team does that mean I have more "right" to wear a "state" uniform and say I have made a state team than if I bowl in De Veer with the same average?

What do you think? If you are lucky to make Rachuig then of course.

I don't see the point of the question.

Brenton quoted .
When I started out I was, as one noted coach of the day put it, "Like a cow with a cup of tea".

Unfortunately Silvano told me many years ago "You not a bowler".

I still believe him even today, That's why I was glad to meet him in the final of the Perth Cup.

cheers

Tony
 
Unfortunately Silvano told me many years ago "You not a bowler".

That was before he learnt better grammar LOL:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

There is no way to have a tournament with an equitable handicap system while bowling centres differ in scoreability and there is no equalisation system in place to equalise, not handicap, but ability. IE the 180 average player has the same handicap whether he plays in a tough centre or an easy centre. Put them on the same condition and they ARE NOT THE SAME. This is the basic problem with ANY handicap event.

stew wrote:

the SA Disabled Team, the SA Deaf Association Team

I have no problem with these people being classed as state representatives as they are, as I previously posted

Is it not what representative level sport is about? Reaching the pinnacle of the sport in your state/country/age group/sex. The only exception is with disabilities teams, and they are the elite performers within their range of disability so as such they still fall within the above criteria.
 
One minor question regarding all these, if I qualify for Rachuig with a 170 average (below the cut-off for De Veer ladies) and make the team does that mean I have more "right" to wear a "state" uniform and say I have made a state team than if I bowl in De Veer with the same average? :confused: :confused:
I agree that a few of us have taken some of the comments rather personally, but after hearing these comments for several years it is no wonder. Yes, we should all be taking the fight to the TBA and not to each other, but perhaps some of the "better" bowlers could help us out with the TBA and not just stand back and say a job well done.
You will find that a lot of the WDV bowlers do not state or even imply they are the best of the best for their state, they are representing their state in De Veer, not just the entire sport of bowling.....at least, I always did. When people asked I would tell them that I made the ACT team in the B Grade, meant I was nearly there, but still had some work to do. Thought that was what it was all about

If you qualified for the Rachuig Team with a 170 average, theoretically, yes, you would then have the right to say you were a State Team Rep. In all likelihood, they would go to the draft if you weren't in the top 5, but yes. Some would bemoan the lack of depth that allows a 170 average bowler to make a Rachuig side, but that's a whole other issue. At least you would get to participate in the Rachuig tournament and gain some experience and hopefully come away better for future events.

Jan
 
Brenton, the comments you have posted are the most positive and encouraging things a wannabe like myself has ever heard from someone at your level of the bowling industry. It is always good to hear the thoughts and experiences of someone who has achieved like yourself. Good on you!
 
Having started this and having read with great interest the posts that have followed, I have this to say: the bigger issue at hand appears to be the perception of Deveer is that it is a cheats way to be called a state representative. I agree with the point made previously that you can not tar all bowlers with the same brush- to the best of my knowledge 99% of Deveer bowlers are legitimate bowlers at that level and are not 'sand-baggers'.

Perhaps the notion that Deveer is comprised of sandbaggers has affected the major decisions that have been made by TBA. Is that not reason for a rethink of the entire issue? If it is a preconceived idea that has driven the decision-making process, how is this a good thing?

The animosity between Deveer and Rachuig and Deveer and the TBA needs to stop and everybody (not excluding myself) has to stop acting like children- eg. popular kids vs the rest etc. Rationality needs to prevail and attitudes of superiority and inferiority need to end.
 
Well said Taps , like has been said previously if the average (De Veer) bowler put as much into their bowling as they have put into this forum we would have a lot of bowlers trying out for the state ( Rachuig ) teams. But haveing said that there is a need for a decent pathway to the top. By that I mean development programs, access to coaching programs etc etc. I have proved prevoisly in this forum that the majority of Rachuig bowlers will give up their time to help out if asked in a decent manner and you are genuinley trying to improve your bowling. What needs to happen is a list of available coaches in your own state/region being made available and how to contact them. I as a prevoius De Veer bowler and being around bowling in the ACT know that although there is a lack of accredited coaches in the ACT you can ask for help from the more experienced bowlers and get it
 
Taps Wrote:

The animosity between Deveer and Rachuig and Deveer and the TBA needs to stop and everybody (not excluding myself) has to stop acting like children- eg. popular kids vs the rest etc. Rationality needs to prevail and attitudes of superiority and inferiority need to end.

Taps,

I know there aremany bowlers who havve reached the elite level that would not give lesser average players the time of day, but there are many, the majority in my opinion, who have not forgotten that they started somewhere far below the level thay have since attained and ar emore than willing to share their knowledge and expertise. I have made my opinions clear about the original De Veer concept, but that does not imply that I have animosity towards De Veer bowlers per se. My animosity is towards those who, in my opinion have abused the system by a) sandbagging and b) by misrepresenting themselves by ommission as elite players when they are, in fact, not and there have been many players in one and/or both categories.

Anyone who seriously wants to use it as a stepping stone to Rachuig, all power to them! however I think there are better ways as have been suggested earlier in this post.

Ice,

Hey, I just tell it like I see it and have experienced it. I see no point in entering into a debate like this with nothing but negative comment. There has been too much of that in this and most other debates on this forum and if anything I have posted helps you, then maybe it has done some good. PM me anytime if you ever want ot ask any questions or talk generally
 
________________________________________
Joe

For your information the following petition was email to all the TBA Board and State Managers yesterday.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Please accept this email as a formal petition for the re-introduction of the Walter De Veer Restricted Challenge, in its 2006 rule format, into the schedule for the 2007 Australian National Championship at Altona.

On Saturday the 6th January 2007 a group of concerned bowlers and administrators met in Melbourne to formulate a plan to petition the TBA Board and State Managers to consider the re-introduction of the very popular Walter De Veer Restricted Challenge, in its 2006 rule format, back into the 2007 Australian National Championship.

G. Wilson (NT), S. Hendricksen (WA), J. Kent (Vic), G. Russell (Vic), D. Simpson (Qld and TBAQ), P. Turner (SA), D. Nichols (SA), L. Hickey (ACT), C. Dennis (ACT), C. Sculthorpe (Tas), K. Huxley (Tas), D. Archer (NSW and NSWTBA Adult State Tournament Committee), M. Wentworth-Perry (NSW) travelled at their own expense to this meeting and represented the voice of eleven years of Walter De Veer Restricted Challenge history.

P. Coburn (Vic), J. Dobson (Tas) & R. Hatchard (SA) also attended as special invited guests and were asked to contribute.

We would like to highlight text included in both the TBA Vision and Mission statements as displayed prominently on the TBA website.

Vision : Tenpin Bowling To Be The Pre-Eminent Lifetime Participative And Competitive Sport In Australia.
Mission Statement : To Provide Governance, Education And Opportunities For Participation And Achievement Within The Sport In Partnership With The Industry And Its Stakeholders.

This group feels that TBA are ignoring their own Mission State and in particular the statement “Opportunities For Participation And Achievement Within The Sport In Partnership With The Industry And Its Stakeholders” with the 2007 Walter De Veer National Restricted Challenge rules as recently released on the following basis:

1. The Walter De Veer Restricted Challenge was an event created by Daryl Holt and presented by Warren Stewart to the ATBC AGM in 1995. Voting delegates at this event agreed unanimously to introduce this event the following year. The first event was conducted as part of the Adult National Championship at Canberra in 1996. Since this first event 539 men and 533 women have represented their respective zones in its eleven year history. With the marked change in the proposed 2007 Walter De Veer National Restricted Challenge rules we note that that this was not introduced “In Partnership With The Industry And Its Stakeholders” in that absolutely none of the zone Adult State Team or De Veer Committees were even asked or consulted on any proposed changes let alone any of the existing DeVeer bowlers themselves. There was ample opportunity to consult with representatives from these committees, and bowlers, as they were all in Hobart at the same time as the State Managers meeting.

2. In 2006 the event known as the Intercentre Challenge formed part of the Australian Adult National Championship. This event was introduced in 2003, as a Trios format, and similar in format to the proposed new 2007 Walter De Veer National Restricted Challenge. The entry fee for this event has been capped at $150.00 through this time.

3. In 2003 (Townsville) 9 teams competed, 7 teams in 2004 (Melbourne), 15 teams in 2005 (Illawarra) and in 2006 (Hobart). This event has been grown slightly from its first event however significant is that the lowest number was when the Nationals were last conducted in Melbourne when Victorian centres boycotted this event. This was after significant promotion of this event through Victorian centres.

4. The success, both financially and participation wise, is dependent upon the local bowler participation and as history has it with the lack of support by local centres this group feels that the new 2007 Walter De Veer National Restricted Challenge will not be attractive for twenty 5-person teams.

5. The entry fee for the proposed 2007 Walter De Veer National Restricted Challenge is $710.00 for each 5-person team making the final. With only the winners of this proposed event getting their money back (subject to 10 teams entering) we feel that this event is less attractive than the current Intercentre Challenge.

6. The 2007 Walter De Veer National Restricted Challenge is not Restricted as there is not an average cut off to make it a restricted event.

7. We feel that this new format will adversely effect the participation at the 2007 Adult Nationals. During the course of the 2006 Australian National Championship in Hobart a total of 12385 games were bowled compared with 12674 in 2005.

• 997 were bowled by Seniors (ATBSO members) who stayed on and bowled an All Event and the TBA Seniors Cup.
• 6280 games were bowled during the DeVeer week through All Events, Intercentre Cup (43 , the 3 days of Deveer and then Restricted Cup. Immediately after the final of Restricted Cup, at the conclusion of DeVeer week, the game count was 618 ahead of the 2005 tally.
• 5108 games were bowled during the week of Rachuig including All Events, 3 days of Rachuig, Classic and Masters.

The game tally during the 2006 Rachuig week was 907 games less then in 2005.

Fact : The DeVeer groups bowl the lion’s share of the games at the Adult National Championships.

A significant number of the 2006 DeVeer bowlers, and their supporters, will not come to the 2007 National Championship. This will lead to a major downturn in the lineage returned to the host centre. This downturn may result in this event running at a significant financial loss.

8. In previous years most zones insist that their state teams must bowl their home zone state championship. With the abolition of the Walter De Veer Restricted Challenge as a state representative group we feel that state championships around the country will also be down on entries.

9. It has been stated that DeVeer was introduced as a pathway to Rachuig. We do not believe this statement as being correct since the 2006 Walter De Veer Restricted Challenge rules state the following purpose for this event:

(a) The purpose of the Walter de Veer Restricted Challenge is to determine annually the best Zone representative team of bowlers with averages not exceeding 184 in the Men’s Division and 174 in the Women’s Division in a handicapped competition.
(b) To foster, develop and advance a spirit of good sportsmanship and fellowship, to promote and maintain a good relationship amongst the representative teams and to provide an opportunity for a combination of graded and handicapped competition of all ages and abilities.

We can find no reference in these rules to this event being a pathway.

10. We do acknowledge that a significant number of bowlers first state team experience was in a DeVeer team. While our investigations, through the TBA website, reveal that twenty (20) of these bowlers went on to compete in the scratch Walter Rachuig Trophy, four (4) of these bowlers went on to represent their country at the highest scratch level, three (3) went on to win a scratch nationally ranked event and one (1) went on to win two scratch national ranking systems. Without this event, we have no doubts that these bowlers would not have moved forward with their bowling if not for their first state team experience with the Walter de Veer Restricted Challenge.

This petition is on behalf of all male bowlers with a 184 or lower average and all female bowlers with a 174 or lower average, coaches, managers and supporters from around Australia – potentially 80% of TBA’s 2007 Membership.

We note that some zones have continued to include a DeVeer roll off date within the state tournament calendars and as the re-introduction of these will require the organisation of these roll offs we request a formal decision or response to this petition no later than the 22nd January 2007.
:cool: :cool: :cool:
 
Keep the Deveer, to me it makes no difference, Looking at Joe statement a lot is based on how many bowlers the national's will lose. A shame a big part of it is all about "Money" and "Lineage" lost.
Have the Deveer just lose the lookalike "Open State Team Shirts" so people can tell them apart!

Cheers

Tony
 
Does anyone know if TBA's decision is perhaps driven by Australian Sports Commission saying to TBA you can't have a "STATE REPRESENTATIVE" competition which is handicapped or includes a team of athletes who are not the "best" in each state?
 
dont get me wrong i havent said a lot about this
but when you say that deveer bowlers are not state representitives is wrong
cause they have been picked to compete in deveer and sent there to represent their state by their state
what if by the new rules an association sent bowlers to compete in the handicapped part
are they not their association reps

i do believe there is a lot of things wrong with deveer
but one of them is not the fact that deveer bowlers represent their state

daniel d
 
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