Ball Brands - Where is AMF at AMF centres!

[Brenton_Davy]

Like you can't cut ovals and you can't check legal weights without a scale. But there are mathematical ways to figure out balance hole placement. When I'm drilling a ball in my shop that is going to require a balance hole, I know where I'm going to place the hole and how big and deep it's going to be long before I check it on the scale. Most of the time the scale is just a formality to double check my work. It just takes practice.

When I'm drilling for a customer, I try to keep all of my specs within 1/32" of my desired specification, but I would have to guess that 90% of my customers wouldn't notice 1/16" of difference. I designed the bridge plates with that in mind. You can always get within 1/16" of your desired pitches with this device, usually closer. Offsets start at 1/8" and go up to 3/4" in 1/8" increments. In order to hit all combinations of pitches exactly I would have to make 4 or 5 more bridge plates. Since most people can't feel 1/16", I felt that the 6 current plates would be enough. The remaining 10% of the bowlers probably wouldn't want to use this device unless I decide to make more plates. The pitches that are available have been computed mathematically, machined into the plates, and checked with digital pitch gauges and they are extremely accurrate.

I'm surprised that you are still using drill bits to cut your ovals if you're as fussy as you say. I use an end mill to cut ovals--much cleaner.

I have some serious issues with some of the above.

Bolded in Red:

Have you not heard of balls with misplaced CG's? So many balls have them,. yet you assume every ball is stamped properly. Sorry, but I have been in the Pro Shop industry for many years, and I have seen CG's mistamped by up to 4 inches! That you don't weigh the ball up prior to drilling leaves you open to some embarrassing errors.

Bolded in Blue:

1/32" is a pretty large margin you are allowing yourself. I have customers that can identify 1/64" differential between balls. Means I HAVE TO BE ACCURATE!. Sounds like you are "dumbing down" the measuring, drilling and fitting skills of the pro shop operator. The ability to create consistency of fit and feel between balls is something most mid to elite level bowlers appreciate. Unfortunately, I also get a lot of bowlers trying to save a few bucks by playing the price game. They often get stung in the end and I suspect the same would happen in this situation.

Create an adjustable, guaranteed accurate version of this product and you might be on to something.

 

[kmtproshop]

I have some serious issues with some of the above.

Bolded in Red:

Have you not heard of balls with misplaced CG's? So many balls have them,. yet you assume every ball is stamped properly. Sorry, but I have been in the Pro Shop industry for many years, and I have seen CG's mistamped by up to 4 inches! That you don't weigh the ball up prior to drilling leaves you open to some embarrassing errors.

Bolded in Blue:

1/32" is a pretty large margin you are allowing yourself. I have customers that can identify 1/64" differential between balls. Means I HAVE TO BE ACCURATE!. Sounds like you are "dumbing down" the measuring, drilling and fitting skills of the pro shop operator. The ability to create consistency of fit and feel between balls is something most mid to elite level bowlers appreciate. Unfortunately, I also get a lot of bowlers trying to save a few bucks by playing the price game. They often get stung in the end and I suspect the same would happen in this situation.

Create an adjustable, guaranteed accurate version of this product and you might be on to something.

Mis-labelled CG's are quite rare over here, but they do happen occaisionally. I get quite busy in my shop and don't have time to check every ball for correct CG placement. If and when I do get one and don't find out until after the ball has been drilled, the manufacturer replaces it with a new ball, no questions asked.

1/32" is a fairly large margin for some and I know exactly who they are when I'm drilling. I have to be more exact with the remaining 10%. Actually, I try to be more exact with everyone, but if I miss by 1/32" with the 90% majority, I don't get too excited. If I miss by more than that, I'll redo it.

As to the adjustability and accuracy of this device, I would like you to tell me what you find that is not adjustable or accurate about it. As I have mentioned before, there are several things that you cannot do with it, but all of the things that you can do ARE adjustable and accurate.

I wish that the pro shop business could go back about 15 years---before balls were being sold on line and before manufacturers were including drilling instructions with every ball purchased for all to see. Back then, the pro shop was the only place to buy a ball and the only ones with the knowledge to drill. My business has suffered as much as everyone elses. Everyone wants to save a buck these days. This is my contribution to those people. I'm not trying to teach the world how to drill balls---I'm only giving them the means to do so if they choose.

 

[kmtproshop]

You guys are too easy!!! Is that all you got??

 

[tonx]

Yep that's all we have. Or it doesn't matter what reply you come up with, no one is buying your little piece of ****, because they arent that stupid. Have a great day.

 

[kmtproshop]

Yep that's all we have. Or it doesn't matter what reply you come up with, no one is buying your little piece of ****, because they arent that stupid. Have a great day.

That wasn't even harsh enough to get me started-----but I'll tell you what I'll do just to prove my point......If someone is willing to pay for the shipping, $46, I'll send them one for free to try out, provided they report their results on this site. It would have to be someone with layout knowledge and someone who has access to pitch guages etc. to check their work for accuracy. I can only send 2 drill bits, so it has to be someone who can use finger grips and a thumb sleeve. Preferably, someone a littly more open minded than you.

 

[Shayne Melton]

I'm someone else. I'm open minded. I am willing to try almost anything in bowling. I will not be trying this item. It is of poor quality.

 

[Troyza]

I don't reallly understand why there is so much hate. Someone tries to present a new idea, & gets eaten alive for it.. k.

I think the point people are missing, is that this item is obviously not aimed at elitists. To me, it seems like it is more aimed at people who really don't care that much about a perfect fit, & just wanna chuck a few balls in league for fun. Proshop operators shouldn't feel threatened by it - If fit is a priority to someone with a quarter of a brain, they'll get it done by somone who knows what they are doing. If this guy can make some money off the other 5% of people who really don't care & wanna try it them selves, by all means let the guy do it. But don't shoot someone down for trying to sell an idea.

 

[androooo]

Play nice now kiddies... I don't want to have to use my powers...

 

[jimcross]

I don't reallly understand why there is so much hate. Someone tries to present a new idea, & gets eaten alive for it.. k.

Exactly. We sure are a wierd mob.
Years ago, when I had the pro-shop in Ballina, I toyed with a similar idea. It was somewhat different in design concept, in that it held the ball in one position, and held the ( portable ) drill in gymbals, allowing it to be positioned around the ball at infinate angles. I found it interesting to work on the design, but didn't take it past the design phase. This was about the time that the 'mill drills' were about to hit Australia, anyhow, and they were obviously a superior concept all round. Had I made one, I would have done so for the interest in taking a concept to an interesting end product.
I honestly would have expected people in bowling to have been intrigued and interested - not the modern version of a lynch mob.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

You guys are too easy!!! Is that all you got??

If that is your reaction to our concerns, it does neither you, your credibility or your inventions credibility any good whatsoever.

That is all I have got!

 

[kmtproshop]

I don't reallly understand why there is so much hate. Someone tries to present a new idea, & gets eaten alive for it.. k.

I think the point people are missing, is that this item is obviously not aimed at elitists. To me, it seems like it is more aimed at people who really don't care that much about a perfect fit, & just wanna chuck a few balls in league for fun. Proshop operators shouldn't feel threatened by it - If fit is a priority to someone with a quarter of a brain, they'll get it done by somone who knows what they are doing. If this guy can make some money off the other 5% of people who really don't care & wanna try it them selves, by all means let the guy do it. But don't shoot someone down for trying to sell an idea.

Actually, I aimed the device at bowlers like myself. I use the exact same span all of the time and the exact same pitches all of the time. The only thing that changes is the layout. I always use finger grips and a thumb sleeve, so I only need 2 drill bits. I use 1/4 left and 1/4 reverse on the thumb and 3/8 lateral on the fingers with no forward or reverse. I can get all of those pitches exactly with just the #5 bridge plate. The pitches will come out exactly the same every time and the span will come out the same as long as I measure accurately. I don't bowl as much as I used to, but 20 years ago I was buying 3 balls a year. I would have jumped on something like this! At todays prices it would pay for itself in less than 2 years!

 

[kmtproshop]

I'm someone else. I'm open minded. I am willing to try almost anything in bowling. I will not be trying this item. It is of poor quality.

Come on now......how can you possibly judge the quality without seeing and touching it????

 

[kmtproshop]

Exactly. We sure are a wierd mob.
Years ago, when I had the pro-shop in Ballina, I toyed with a similar idea. It was somewhat different in design concept, in that it held the ball in one position, and held the ( portable ) drill in gymbals, allowing it to be positioned around the ball at infinate angles. I found it interesting to work on the design, but didn't take it past the design phase. This was about the time that the 'mill drills' were about to hit Australia, anyhow, and they were obviously a superior concept all round. Had I made one, I would have done so for the interest in taking a concept to an interesting end product.
I honestly would have expected people in bowling to have been intrigued and interested - not the modern version of a lynch mob.

When I came up with the idea, I was thinking the same as you....I thought people would be intrigued and interested. That's how I would have felt if someone else would have invented it. I was completely shocked when I got the exact same reaction here in the states as I'm getting from most all of you. It took about a year for people to get used to the idea. I spent a lot of time trying to defend my invention on various web sites. Now when I post a thread, and someone starts slamming it, one of my customers will usually come on and defend it for me!

 

[RobbieB]

Couple of points - your video comes across as more of a vanity piece than a sales tool. It is far too long and doesn't go into any real details of how the pitches are applied to the ball other than the ones you use for your grip - which I must admit seems a little too convenient as all the specific pitches can be applied with only one plate. There is no mention of possibly needing more than one plate for incompatable pitches. As an example, if one has 0/0 in the thumb, 1/8:0 in one finger and 5/8:0 in the other you would need three plates? If you wanted to go to 1/4 forward in your fingers, you need yet another plate - makes it hard to do much experimenting with your grip. Unless of course you get the full set of plates with the kit?
Also, you can't see a lot of the sheets you refer to clearly in the course of the video, which makes it very difficult to follow.
Forget drilling *your* ball, what you need is a short (5 min max) video showing how to drill a single hole with specific pitches and explain what the bridge/s do/es as you go.
Make more for layouts also if you want, but based on the info you give on layouts most top level bowlers already know more than you do. Focus on what your tool does.
Lastly, get an accredited ball driller to check your grip - I guarantee that ball does not fit you properly. Finger laterals are definitely incorrect, and so is the thumb lateral based on your pencil grip.
It is a neat tool that will suit a very narrow market. As an aside, anyone who came into my shop, asked for their pitches, and then came back with a freshly drilled ball and asked for it to be checked for legality without offering to pay for my time would end up with three ounces side weight. YMMV.

 

[kmtproshop]

Couple of points - your video comes across as more of a vanity piece than a sales tool. It is far too long and doesn't go into any real details of how the pitches are applied to the ball other than the ones you use for your grip - which I must admit seems a little too convenient as all the specific pitches can be applied with only one plate. There is no mention of possibly needing more than one plate for incompatable pitches. As an example, if one has 0/0 in the thumb, 1/8:0 in one finger and 5/8:0 in the other you would need three plates? If you wanted to go to 1/4 forward in your fingers, you need yet another plate - makes it hard to do much experimenting with your grip. Unless of course you get the full set of plates with the kit?
Also, you can't see a lot of the sheets you refer to clearly in the course of the video, which makes it very difficult to follow.
Forget drilling *your* ball, what you need is a short (5 min max) video showing how to drill a single hole with specific pitches and explain what the bridge/s do/es as you go.
Make more for layouts also if you want, but based on the info you give on layouts most top level bowlers already know more than you do. Focus on what your tool does.
Lastly, get an accredited ball driller to check your grip - I guarantee that ball does not fit you properly. Finger laterals are definitely incorrect, and so is the thumb lateral based on your pencil grip.
It is a neat tool that will suit a very narrow market. As an aside, anyone who came into my shop, asked for their pitches, and then came back with a freshly drilled ball and asked for it to be checked for legality without offering to pay for my time would end up with three ounces side weight. YMMV.

Point taken.....but you have to understand that when I introduced this device, I was not trying to teach the world how to drill and that still is not my intent. If you don't already know what pitch does, then this device is not for you. There is a short version of the video on you tube.

You are correct with regard to different pitches...you would need 3 different plates in your example. But in my experience, your example is not the norm. To date, most people are able to create all of their pitches with 1 or 2 plates. Currently, the kit comes with 2 for $285 US. I had added a supplemental video that compares a drill press to my jig. In it, I demonstrate exactly how the device works with regard to compound angles, but I had to remove it temporarily because someone planted a bug on it. It will be back up sometime next week. Again, I didn't make this device for the person who wants to experiment. I made it for the person like myself, who uses the same grip all of the time.

Lastly, as far as my credibility goes, I was taught by the best. My mentor currently works in R&D at Brunswick. I didn't just take a 2 or 3 day class, I worked under him for several years, after which time we became partners before he moved on to Brunswick. In the video, I checked the span and pitches and as you can see, they did come out correct. The fingers were the easiest since they use one single pitch, 3/8 lateral left and right. As long as you place the ball in the jig correctly, it is impossible to get any pitch other than 3/8 with the #5 plate.

I appreciate your constructive criticism---a refreshing change!

If you would like to examine the instruction sheets in more detail, I would be glad to e-mail them to you if you provide an address.

 

[RobbieB]

In the video, I checked the span and pitches and as you can see, they did come out correct. The fingers were the easiest since they use one single pitch, 3/8 lateral left and right. As long as you place the ball in the jig correctly, it is impossible to get any pitch other than 3/8 with the #5 plate.

Sorry, you misunderstood what I said - I accept that the holes you drilled are pitched to 3/8 left/right lateral. However, it would be very unusual for those laterals to actually fit anyone properly, since for most people the middle finger bends towards the base of the thumb and thus generally requires close to 0 lateral. IMHO, of course.

 

[kmtproshop]

Sorry, you misunderstood what I said - I accept that the holes you drilled are pitched to 3/8 left/right lateral. However, it would be very unusual for those laterals to actually fit anyone properly, since for most people the middle finger bends towards the base of the thumb and thus generally requires close to 0 lateral. IMHO, of course.

Another debate for a different thread---not to say that this one has stayed on subject!

 

[Shayne Melton]

Come on now......how can you possibly judge the quality without seeing and touching it????

I'll use my 20+ years as a mechanical engineer to make my opinion

Also, if you wish to advertise on this web site as you are, maybe you should be paying for an advertising space

 

[John_Velo]

G’Day All,

I would really like to put this thread to bed. Seriously, I only asked where AMF Balls had gone.

That just went way off track.

I have also emailed Steve from KMT. I will be more than happy to test his product as I was looking at it anyway about three months ago. The timing for me has been wrong, as I am also looking at dad's old pro-shop gear and evaluating whether it is worth repairing or starting from scratch. I just don’t believe I am the best person to do Steve justice. A lot of time and effort went into Steve’s design and he has put up with a lot of pressure from the American bowling community. If you have seen the forums over there you will know why he was surprised at the lack of anger in the Aussie response. But, his faith in his design has to be respected. Can we leave it there please.

Image if one of the Nah Sayers had an invention they believed in and where treated this way? Would they still have the faith in their design? No comment required on that one as it is just a statement.

If the test comes through I will post the results on a dedicated web site and put the web site in my footer. That way no-one’s toes are trodden on.

I hope this is the end of this thread and that the thread does not get pulled, as even though it has gone totally pear shaped it has had some useful information and points of view shared by the bowler, the pro-shop owners and distributors.

What it has highlighted is that pro-shop owners are suffering and the light at the end of tunnel is not bright for these guys. So, please, support the locals first, please, if they can’t help then look elsewhere at other local guys. But as I do, I always call my local pro-shop before buying else where. If the product is available I buy local whether face to face or from an Australian site.

Could I please ask that this be the last item in the thread, as I now know where AMF balls are!

 

[tonx]

Well to be honest, no you don't know where AMF balls have gone.

I closed today.