Ball Brands - Where is AMF at AMF centres!

[Michael Little]

Could I please ask that this be the last item in the thread, as I now know where AMF balls are!

Ok no problems :thumbup:

 

[John_Velo]

Thanks Champ.

 

[hewer]

Actually, I aimed the device at bowlers like myself. I use the exact same span all of the time and the exact same pitches all of the time. The only thing that changes is the layout. I always use finger grips and a thumb sleeve

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every single bowler use the same span and same pitches all the time? - exception is unless you're trying a different fit.

So I don't see how this singles you out?

 

[kmtproshop]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every single bowler use the same span and same pitches all the time? - exception is unless you're trying a different fit.

So I don't see how this singles you out?

I'm referring to myself and others like me as opposed to someone who wants to experiment with different pitches, spans, etc.

 

[RobbieB]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every single bowler use the same span and same pitches all the time? - exception is unless you're trying a different fit.

So I don't see how this singles you out?

Most bowlers do use the same drill specs all the time. A lot probably shouldn't - apart form experimenting to try to get the fit just that little bit better, it is possible to drill balls with slightly different grips to achieve a different roll. The trick is to alter the grip in a way that it feels the same at the release point but comes off the hand different.

I have also found that heavier gear (I use a mix of 15 and 16 atm) comes off the hand just a little quicker (duh!) so I have a little more forward in the thumbs on the 16lbs.

To Mr. kmt - Have you thought about putting a moving bottom cradle in your device instead of a fixed ball cup? Would be very easy to do, and would allow any pitches to be drilled with a simple vertical bush on the top plate.

 

[kmtproshop]

[To Mr. kmt - Have you thought about putting a moving bottom cradle in your device instead of a fixed ball cup? Would be very easy to do, and would allow any pitches to be drilled with a simple vertical bush on the top plate.[/QUOTE]

I did-----I experimented for over a year with several different versions before settling on this one. In the interest of simplicity to the end user, safety, and keeping the cost down as low as possible without sacrificing accuracy, this is where it ended up.

 

[RobbieB]

[I did-----I experimented for over a year with several different versions before settling on this one. In the interest of simplicity to the end user, safety, and keeping the cost down as low as possible without sacrificing accuracy, this is where it ended up.

Not trying to teach you how to suck eggs - I can appreciate that a bidirectional moving jig is expensive. Being a simple person, I was thinking about a more simple approach:

Make a square plate with the ball ring centred on it. Make a square holding plate 1" bigger each way that it sits on and cut 14 8x1/8" and 4 x 1/16" spacers. (or any combo that adds up to 1" in 1/16th increments) You can now drill any combo of pitches up to 1" x1" in any direction (if you start with 0/0 in one corner, or 1/2 x 1/2 if you start with it centred) using the spacers with no moving parts. Ball goes in the same way every time, no rotation or charts needed.

Cheap, simple, effective and easy to use. Just my 2c.

 

[kmtproshop]

Not trying to teach you how to suck eggs - I can appreciate that a bidirectional moving jig is expensive. Being a simple person, I was thinking about a more simple approach:

Make a square plate with the ball ring centred on it. Make a square holding plate 1" bigger each way that it sits on and cut 14 8x1/8" and 4 x 1/16" spacers. (or any combo that adds up to 1" in 1/16th increments) You can now drill any combo of pitches up to 1" x1" in any direction (if you start with 0/0 in one corner, or 1/2 x 1/2 if you start with it centred) using the spacers with no moving parts. Ball goes in the same way every time, no rotation or charts needed.

Cheap, simple, effective and easy to use. Just my 2c.

Not sure I'm following you.........

 

[tonx]

Not sure I'm following you.........

Why doesnt that surprise me?

 

[RobbieB]

Make a square holding plate 1" bigger each way that it sits on and cut 14 8x1/8" and 4 x 1/16" spacers. .

Oops - make that 14 x 1/8" spacers, as in 14 pieces.

Tonx, you're just mean.

 

[mickyd213]

I closed today.

Why is that Tonx?

 

[jimcross]

Originally Posted by tonx
I closed today.

Why is that Tonx? ( mickeyd213 )

I hope you're going to stay on site? How will we get along without your free ' character assessments' of others who post here?

 

[John_Velo]

G'Day,

For those people interested, I have stated the review as promised and added the review to the web site listed below in my signature.

No the web site is not a vanity thing, but one of a couple of domains I purchased to put dad's bowling scrap books online. So I thought I would use one for this review as previously stated on about page 9 of this posts.

Look if you are curious.

 

[jimcross]

Good work, John.
I've read your review as far as you've gone. You've done a good job of explaining the procedures and the results so far. Keep it up!

Jim.

 

[jason_doust]

Why Good Pro Shops Close Up

Why is that Tonx?

I think I can suggest some answers that question from personal experience.

MAYBE... Because so many fools want a pro shop service free of charge or stupidly cheap.

MAYBE... Because ball shops selling gear with $40 margin cause you to look at better ways to spend your time and maybe actually see your family.

MAYBE... Because many wholesalers are making more per ball for importing, storing and shipping it than a good pro shop does for investing in great equipment, setting aside time for you, measuring you and your PAP, discussing your desired reaction, mapping the ball to your PAP, drilling the ball including precision ovalling, then fitting it so it's just so.

MAYBE... Because through giving no consideration to anything but what's in it for them, cheap people behave as if none of this has any real value. As if a badly fitting ball is no problem, which is exactly why I categorise thes people as fools. They proudly practice false economy as if it were gospel wisdom.

MAYBE... Because it's just not profitable to run a pro shop right now. And it's just bloody frustrating having to spend a lot of time justifying (to fools) why you charge more than the rough as guts operators who punch balls cheap in 10 minutes.

As I have explained to a lot of people over the last three years, nobody wins a price war, because quality operators end up walking away as they can make more money for less stress and less time doing something else. No doubt something they love less, but they get to spend so much more time with people they love more.

Just as Tonx has.

 

[rambo1]

hear! hear! Jason truer words have never been spoken

 

[John_Velo]

Hi Jason,

Well up front I am going to apologies to anybody this thread offends. It is not aimed to offend but to add the point of view of a consumer. I will be objective and open minded. Again, if I offend, that is not my intension.

So deep breath and here I go in under ten miutes:

A quality ball driller cannot be replaced. Through the years of bowling in Australia it has only been for the love of their sport that they hang around.

Take yourself, Andy (Aussie), Chris Batson just to name a few. That service is worth at a minimum $100 per hour. Why, well your craftsman. Tailors of the hand if you like. If anybody has not had a bad fitting ball to know the difference then lash out and get it done properly at least once in your life so you know the difference between a quality fit and house ball fit.

The other point that I find hard to understand is this point as you state:

MAYBE... Because many wholesalers are making more per ball for importing, storing and shipping it than a good pro shop does for investing in great equipment, setting aside time for you, measuring you and your PAP, discussing your desired reaction, mapping the ball to your PAP, drilling the ball including precision ovalling, then fitting it so it's just so.

People will always seek to save, heck I earn the same amount now as I did ten years ago and the cost of living has not remained the same. That's just how it is.

But the pro-shop guys appear to be hit from all angles. The purchase and the sale. If every pro-shop said lets buy direct I am sure that would be stopped by the suppliers. So what’s the happy medium? It would appear that anybody can buy a single ball from an online pro-shop in the U.S for a lot less than the pro-shop operator can buy it locally. WOW, seriously. If everybody in Australia bought their next two balls from the U.S direct, let’s think about that for a minute. Let’s say we have 100,000 bowlers in Australia for arguments sake, and they buy their next two balls from the U.S that would be 200,000 drillings for the Pro-Shop guys at say $100 to $150 for the time to look at and do a quality drilling, nothing to the local suppliers.

Interesting point as that was stated deeper in this thread by a supplier that said they don’t mind if every bowler buys one or two balls for themselves direct from the U.S.

I am sorry if that may offend some of the suppliers it’s not meant to be offensive. I just want to see a quality pro-shop in each area that can offer a service that everybody can afford. I would hate to lose these guys and their talent. Their service is worth the money, the ball is the cheap bit. If the balls are cheaper for the pro-shop to bring in directly or for the consumer to do so , you would then feel good about spending the money on the service the pro-shop offered. But when the ball is expensive the Pro-Shop guys has to do the same job cheaper to compete. No tradesman should find themselves in the position of cutting costs on materials and the hourly rate to compete. The end result is a poor job or no tradesman to do the work at all.

Ok, that’s my ten minutes done. Again I apologies if I have offended some of the suppliers and Pro-Shop operator, I certainly don’t mean to. I am just giving my point of view as an end customer, the final owner of the product.

 

[mickyd213]

Re: Why Good Pro Shops Close Up

I think I can suggest some answers that question from personal experience.

MAYBE... Because so many fools want a pro shop service free of charge or stupidly cheap.

Hi Jason,

I have no problem with paying for quality workmanship from professional ball drillers. But I would also expect said ball driller to carry himself with professionalism and courtesy. If an appointment has been made, keep it. I have kids as well and the 4hrs I spent in the car driving to and from the proshop for a no show was disappointing to say the least. As we ourselves take your time to get quality services we also sacrifice our time as well.

 

[Chosen]

Not everyone's using a woodwork drill, Jim. And the good pro shops use gear that can do that. Mine can. No sweat. Because it’s not a drill. It’s a mill. It’s 2HP motor is rated to drive an 1¼” bit through mild steel and it’s 3” front post/ 5” rear post configuration can deal with the lateral forces to cut 1” slots in mild steel. It has Accu-Rite Digital readouts, calibrated to 1/1000”. The Ovalmatic jig, as used on the PBA tour truck (granted, mine’s an older model these days) pivots the ball about dead centre, so I can hit spans dead on without adjusting pitch. I scribe a line (about 1/64” thick) and after drilling an oval thumb hole can pick whether to hit it in the centre, top or bottom edge of that line. That's getting real!

The jig in question is an interesting product and quite clever. Nice work. It is definitely for the "tinkerers" among us though and obviously does not compare to serious equipment. And that's ok. It's obviously not meant to.

The trouble is that Joe Bowler doesn’t know the difference. He's probably so used to having gear that doesn't fit that he doesn't see the point in getting good work done and doesn’t want to pay for it either.

Which brings us to the price question. To make any money in a pro-shop, you simply must charge more than in the US, where turnover is much greater. There are pro-shops in the US that turn over more balls than any distributor in this country. Read that again and soak it in. Think, actually think about the ramifications that kind of turnover brings to your pro-shop business model. Now think again about the dis-economies of scale that exist in a small Australian pro-shop. And every pro shop is small in this country.

And before some clown comes in with the patently not-thought-through argument of "Aw, you just need to get competitive...", go and price the cost of your new wonder ball from bowlingstuff.com, including freight and drilling and if you're a couple of bucks ahead, you're lucky, but you have no warranty on either the ball or the drillling. Then go and cost the set-up costs of a real pro shop here, then price the importation of gear, including freight, GST, brokerage and anything else that comes along. Then add rent into the equation. And maybe if you're feeling benevolent, the odd bit of profit to eat with. It's staggering how much money you throw into a quality pro shop to get it running.

Every good pro shop in this country is competitive. It's just that there are a lot of people out there who think that they’re very clever because they got something cheap. Sometimes, it’s genuinely cheaper, but I cannot tell you how many times some guy has given me a proud recitation of how cheap they got a ball, then when I dig a little about freight, inserts and drilling, I discover that he could have bought it from me at the same price or even less in some cases.

If there’s one thing I learned in life, it’s that you get what you pay for. If it’s cheap, it’s either on clearance or likely to be aimed at a thoughtless market too lazy to look beyond price. And competing on price is a mug’s game. Ask any good tradesman.

Go and buy a top quality driver off the shelf and see what you'll pay. If you get it from a real pro shop they’ll carefully help you pick the right one and any custom work required usually goes on top, which is fair enough. A bit more for a better result. A good bowling pro shop will help you select the right ball according to surface, core RG & differential, map it according to your PAP, taking into consideration finer points of surface adjustment, pin, MB and x-hole placement and dimensions to see how it affects the finished RG and differential of the ball. They will painstakingly fit the ball and note it all down for your next visit. That’s why a first performance ball fitting and drilling in my pro-shop takes 1½ hrs from go to whoa. You get this (plus slug and grips) included in the price I quote you up front. It’s about whether you want quality work or cheap work. Mine’s guaranteed, by the way.

And for the record, 3 3/8” is only leverage in an un-drilled, symmetric-cored ball. It shifts once you put holes in it, when of course it's no longer symmetrical. In fact, it's not a terribly useful layout these days.

Any fool can get balls in and plenty do. There's a constant turnover of guys getting gear in, selling it for a meat pie's worth of margin, realising a few months later that it's just way too much work for too little return, but they've painted themselves into a corner by starting cheap and have attracted the wrong customer base, so they go do something else. The same thing happens in “pro shops” that drill balls for $30 (or less) in 10 minutes. You get what you pay for. Funnily enough, the stress of tight time frames and the lack of respect that the resultant poor work generates turns people off wanting to do it and whether they stick around or not, they lose interest, as they don't have the control over the role they'd like. Some folks sadly believe that you can layout and drill a performance ball in 20 minutes. I feel sorry for their customers who are paying good money for a ball to be slapped up. If it's not right, you've paid too much, regardless of the price.

I'm very sad to hear that Tonx is pulling down his shingle. Another casualty of the cheap bowling ball "shops". As Chris Barnes reportedly once said "You can't out-bowl a bad grip." It's the experience, expertise, machinery and commitment to excellence that you pay for in a good pro shop.

On the other hand, there's not too many drillers I'd send folks to in this country. But Tonx is one. And now he's gone to get a life because he can't make it work by basing his business model on producing a quality product, because so many thoughtless people want the cheapest thing they can lay their hands on. Look within. You'll know who you are.

Well done. You must be so proud of yourselves.

I personally believe that Jason is spot on and having had balls drilled by many so called experts in the past from around the world I can tell you for a fact that my favorite balls currently in my arsenal (and i hv over a 100 balls and hv drilled balls myself even) were drilled by Jas so I know he knows his stuff. The reality is that bowling balls need to be legal in our sport and unfortunately unless someone throws a 300 no one is the wiser. So my biggest worry is that even tho the Jig sounds good in theory, there will be those few who try to use it for evil

Us bowlers who are truly serious about our sport would never consider having a ball drilled except by a accredited ball driller with lots of creditials and high recommendations, simply put the best of the best.

Btw there are tons of back yard mechanics out there but I promise you I would never take my Mercedes to one! I only take my car to a proper mercedes mechanic why would i treat my bowling gear any different lol

Hey everyone, Happy Bowling

 

[Chosen]

I don't reallly understand why there is so much hate. Someone tries to present a new idea, & gets eaten alive for it.. k.

I think the point people are missing, is that this item is obviously not aimed at elitists. To me, it seems like it is more aimed at people who really don't care that much about a perfect fit, & just wanna chuck a few balls in league for fun. Proshop operators shouldn't feel threatened by it - If fit is a priority to someone with a quarter of a brain, they'll get it done by somone who knows what they are doing. If this guy can make some money off the other 5% of people who really don't care & wanna try it them selves, by all means let the guy do it. But don't shoot someone down for trying to sell an idea.

It is true what u say but as ive mentioned in a earlier post balls need to be legal and unfortunately the legalness of a ball is not checked until someone shoots a 300 during a league or a tournament and even then there are some who are slack in this department. So that means most of the time the honor system is in effect.

Bowling is a actual sport with actual rules therefore this device in my opinion will end up being more trouble than its worth.