SANDBAGGERS

[JWhitty]

WE need a National register where ALL bowlers scores are calculated into One (1) average. This should include all event bowled in. No different to golfers. In this age of computers and whizz kids surely TBA could come up with a formula to bring a fair average right across Australia.

Actually I've already investigated that, and run in to two significant hurdles.
1) AMF won't release their data in a friendly fashion for me. I did actually ask if I could drop an uploader program on their system, and they quite fairly have concerns including security of their data

2) Golf courses are rated on a standardised scale, we have no such mechanism for lanes, but then there's lane condition as well. Golf courses may move the flag, tee, or cut the grass but nothing on the scale of lane oil

Creating the systems isn't the problem, it's standardising the business rule across the country that's the problem

 

[rambo1]

in golf you have to play 10 games below your hadicap before you get a stroke back maybe similar can be done with bowling eg: handicaps will change after 4 weeks if you bowl below average for the 4 weeks but if you bowl better than average it will change as normal taking into account all the weeks bowled that is what happens in golf

 

[rambo1]

in golf you have to play 10 games below your hadicap before you get a stroke back maybe similar can be done with bowling eg: handicaps will change after 4 weeks if you bowl below average for the 4 weeks but if you bowl better than average it will change as normal taking into account all the weeks bowled that is what happens in golf

 

[AdrianS]

Hmmm, i like reading this. Give it a few weeks over a few states then see what happens!!!

 

[MinusZero]

The 80% of 200 system sorts out most sandbaggers. You are worse off on a lower average on that system.
Where is use to bowl they had a 100% of 200 system and sandbagging was rife.

Rolling Averages
Although i didnt like the system too much when i played under it. One solution is a rolling average. Instead of having an average over the whole league, have it always over a number of games.

I played with this system based on 5 week averages and also with 10 week averages. The system worked ok but i found that bowlers on high averages were never much different to their rolling average. I was always within about 0-5 pins. Someone who improves or slumps gets a new average based only over the pre-determined period of games.

The flaw in the system
Because league schedules are available in advance, you could actually rig your average knowing that you are playing the top team in 5 weeks or whatever the period is. You could bowl really terribly for one week and then you have that in your average sequence for the next five weeks and a higher handicap for that time.

I found some wild variations when people hit form or slump. I have seen someone on the 5 game system, have an awesome week and then 5 weeks later bowled rubbish and drop their average by 10pins.

It might sort out some sandbaggers, but it has to be over a long enough length of games, smaller amount of games = wild variations in average.

 

[ThEOnE]

I have often resorted to mucking around in league and not caring too much about winning or losing my points,(I bowl league coz i like the company and my tam mates) not for trying to get my average down (Last year 190+, down to 174 atm) but simply coz i like to have a bit of fun, and am tired of trying my guts out and getting no reward for shots at our home center (Morwell).
I would not consider this 'sandbagging' as when it comes time for championships ect i will still play open, same with masters and other scratch tournaments away from home where i know i can bowl much,much better!
What you guys are talking about maybe they same sort of thing, unless they ARE then playing in restricted comps and benifiting financially from winning these events?

 

[lifer]

all your comments have been quite interesting and very helpful - Thanks guys

 

[Mustard]

After reading most of the comments here I don't think many people have seen really good sand baggers. The good ones that I've seen (not that I've seen a lot) always let their opponent go first, then they will try and get about 20 to 30 pins in front of you and then they start to match what you do. ie if you open they open if you strike they strike. They only try if they get a string of strikes.

I would like to think there is only a very small percentage of bowlers that do sandbag, as its not worth it in the long run.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[PeterB]

Sandbagging is cheating plain and simple. If it at all can be proved they should lose all privileges for at least a season nation wide.

 

[exPatBowler]

There are several heated threads on the USBC site about sandbagging in the USBC Open Tournament. As there are only 2 divisions (181+ = Regular, 180- = Classified) and the number of entrants (the tournament runs over a 5 month period) makes the prizes at the top end of the Classified division quite high, its easy to see why. The difference between a 180 and a 181 average is going from a shot at winning several thousand dollars to little chance at winning anything and there are unfortunately many dishonorable bowlers and many ways for someone to deflate their average.

There has been a lot of discussion about divisionalizing the tournament to address the problem by smoothing out the peer groups and reducing the prize fund in each division to make the top end prizes less lucrative. Some argue this would make it worse. So, as the Australian Nationals uses a grading system (and I'm assuming it always has as I recall before I left in 1972 it was already that way) I am wondering if its a big problem or not?

 

[Gutter rat]

What i hate is the hypocrite career sandbaggers. There is a family team where I bowl and they win the leagues they bowl in each year ,and not because they are good bowlers.
They start the year off 20-30 pins below their real averages then several weeks into the season start trying when required.
When they come to verse a team that can beat them they put in pre bowls that are 30-75 pins over average each game.
So they have no back bone and if you have a few below average games they are up at the counter complaining to management that you are sandbagging.
These are the true sandbaggers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[grumpie]

has anyone thought about different lane conditions?

especially if you bowl in a centre where the condition is different every week..
if you can't work it out and your average drops do you still class this as sandbagging?

Is it the condition on the lane different or the staff ajusting the air conditioning and causing the condition on the lanes to change??????

I know Morwell ajust the air conditioning to suit the staff which creates different conditions to the lanes.

Gunther

 

[AdrianS]

Hey Paul, problem elimination is only a few months away!!!

 

[AH1992]

omg don't get me started about sandbaggers.... put simply in a nice way without using swear words, they are destroying the game for us bowlers that actually try to bowl to the best of our ability.

 

[da_cowman]

Man who cares about sandbaggers. You should be worrying about your own game to imoprove. Sandbaggers will never improve and will never get to the elite bowling stage. I dont see any of the High end bowlers (Belmonte, WRWJ, Barnes) sandbag. They might have their bad games time to time though. In the end they are just going to hurt their own game and never get better. I know of one sandbagger who is purposely doing it but time after time im still kicking his ass even with his high handicap. In the end im going to benefit and end up accomplishing more.

So in the end if you worry about them your only hurting your own game and potential.

Im off to throw a couple of carpark games now lol.

It's a problem because, and quite simply, it's against TBA Rules and Regulations to do so. Sandbagging has done more then ruin leagues, it's taken Walter De Veer with it.
The fact is, while people can sandbag, then proceed to make state teams, or as outlined by ExPatBowler, enhance their chances of making serious dough, it will be a problem. How do we get around it? That's the money question.

Cow

 

[jonesy911]

the thing is how can you tell if someones sandbagging or just having a couple of bad weeks?

 

[robbo300]

Lewis the main difference is bloody sandbaggers usually have been found to be doing this for a long time and usually when some thing big is comming up they tend to struggle just before or if they are real good at it possibly months prior< boy i hate sandbaggers and trust me i know a few

 

[Roysa]

I dont see the point. Im out there to better my own scores week after week, if i beat others then thats a bonus. Im focusing on closing frames and staying clean. After all there is nothing you can do about what others are doing.

 

[jhk67]

I think the best way of attack is to look at the stats from year to year. For example if someone was averaging 195 one year, then the next year goes down to a 170 and then proceeds to make a state team averaging 195 in qualifying, the case can be made. In this case you could change the rules to say that you must go by the avg of the last 2 years which would be 182.5 in this case. You could even go last 3 years. If a bowler has no average then they will get an automatic avg of 185. Instead of doing highest avg for 1 year, do the average of the highest average for last 3 years.

 

[Captain Obvious]

You can always make the lane conditions very difficult for the sandbaggers just on their lanes for each night