Can I have some opinion's please!!

[CHIN]

I always thought that pre-bowling & post-bowling was suppose to be against the team you were suppose to play on the normal league night.

See Rule 338 in the TBA Rules & Regs section. www.tenpin.org.au

None of this bull**** 1 team playing on an alternate night with different lane conditions scoring 30-40 pins over average a game and the other team bowling on the normal league night.

I think the pre-bowl, post-bowl system has been taken advantage of and abused over the years.

 

[hamster]

Last night at Aspley in the Haro’s league, there was a bowler on his way to bowling with his fiancé, when they received a phone call from a family relative to say that there Grandmother who had been I’ll had just passed away
They turned around and headed to the hospital and contacted there team mate to tell them what had happened…It was way to late to organise a sub at such short notice so there team then requested from Christine Politsis (league Secretary) if under these circumstances that would it be possible for there team member to do a Post Bowl. They were told flat out no, not even under these circumstances. After some deliberation it was then put to the League captains, which would than require 100% vote to be passed. It wasn’t approved so he wasn’t allowed.
In my opinion this was not handled in the best spirit of bowling or a fellow human being. Surely some one dying that’s close to you half an hour before league starts constitutes an emergency. Just my thoughts, what about yours?

My Opinion is that this Thread should not be here, steve , in this content. The issue of pre , post and emergency bowling is what should be tossed back and forward, not the decision of a league and its members made and agreed upon in its constitution. Also if it is the members of the league that vote in the committee and agree on the rules, isn't the league to blame not those enforcing it?

hammo

 

[stormy]

Rule 338
RULE 338 POSTPONED OR PRE-BOWLED GAMES - (Unless covered by a Leagues own Rules)
All league games will be bowled as per the pre-arranged schedule unless they are postponed or pre-bowled upon
authorisation of the league’s Management Committee. Whilst the Committee may determine what is sufficient cause to
grant postponement/pre-bowling, they must always allow for “Emergency” situations. When Doubles or Teams are
postponed or pre-bowled, they must compete as Doubles and Teams respectively..

 

[RobbieB]

Stormy beat me to it - under TBA rules, a league is not permitted to ban post bowling. Since the league has not set out in the constitution the circumstances under which post bowling is permitted, but rather has an illegal rule banning post bowling, the rule is excised from the constitution. If the request for a post bowl was rejected by the league committee based on an illegal rule, the bowlers concerned simply need to write to TBA requesting a ruling on whether a postbowl should be allowed given the circumstances at the time.

TBA may require that the whole team post bowl, allow the absent members to bowl separately, or endorse the decision of the committee. Ask and find out.

 

[jason_doust]

Thank goodness the rules agree with (increasingly less common) common sense and human decency.

What Simeon voted against this?

If you are one of these people, then read this s l o w l y . . .
It's a bloody game of bowling for God's sake!

What's more, it's only bloody league! Get your priorities sorted out!

In the words of Doug Mulray; "People... They're no good."

 

[hamster]

Well you learn something new everyday.

The irony is that its my team mate and the team that this issue concerns. Well isn't the #@*% going to hit the fan thursday night. I've accepted that what's in the leagues constitution to be legit as i don't like going to meetings because of all the propaganda. Like most others all i want to do is BOWL.

The saga continues and also it wouldn't feel right if we didn't clash with members of the committee AGAIN!!!! :furious:

Thanks on the education,

hammo

ps. sorry hammer

pps. Need an answer before going in GUNS blazing. Next to Rule 338 in () it states "Unless covered by a league's own rules"
So who is in the right? TBA ruling or the league's ruling? The League ruling is under section 15.1 " Pre-bowling is allowed in this league,post bowling is not allowed" as per their Consitution.

Help?

 

[RobbieB]

Relevant rules:
Rule 311(3): The management committee and the league will be bound by Constitution and rules adopted prior to the commencement of the season. Such rules must not be in conflict with TBA rules (my italics)
Rule 338: RULE 338 POSTPONED OR PRE-BOWLED GAMES - (Unless covered by a Leagues own Rules)
All league games will be bowled as per the pre-arranged schedule unless they are postponed or pre-bowled upon authorisation of the league’s Management Committee. Whilst the Committee may determine what is sufficient cause to grant postponement/pre-bowling, they must always allow for “Emergency” situations.
I believe that the intent of the rule is to force leagues to always allow for emergency situations, and that to simply outlaw post bowling under any circumstances in the absence of a league rule setting out an alternative emergency option contravenes Rule 311. This is supported by Rule 301, which states in part:
"At all times, the spirit of good fellowship and sociability will be fostered amongst members."
It has been establish in cases in the past that the spirit of the rules is generally what is enforced to provide and fair and reasonable outcome within the spirit in which the game should be played.
I'm far from being a rules guru, but I think it is clear that a postponement should have at least been given consideration. I would submit a formal appeal against the decision of the management committee and refer the matter to the TBA for a ruling. That is their job.
Good luck, Tony.

PS - Jason, watch that blood pressure mate

 

[Blondie]

I know I am a bit behind the 8 ball but having only just joined tonight...

Although I am extremely sorry for the people involved's loss, there is a few things regarding this issue I think people should know:

In the Haro's 2007 Constitution it states exactly:
"15.1 Pre bowling is allowed in this league, post bowling is not allowed"
This was voted on in the Annual General Meeting at the end of last year as it has been every year before. If people were not wanting this to be the ruling they should be present at the these meetings and have their say, otherwise they do not have any right to complain with the rulings made!!!

Also in the absence of the person involved a blind score was not entered. A sub who I believe is now a "Team Sub" bowled and bowled an excellent series.

Thirdly, myself and 2 other members of my family are team captains. NONE of us were included in this apparent team captain vote.

I agree with many of the people who have already posted comments, an undated prebowl should be bowled early in the season if they wish to cover unforeseen instances such as this one and others like injuries, etc. I also agree that in a situation such as this one, bowling would be the most distant thing from my mind. I was involved in a situation a few years ago where I sustained an injury to my ankle and I was unable to bowl. I did not have any prebowls and therefore used a sub. I was prepared to use a blind score if I needed to as this situation was unforeseen. My first concern was looking after my injury in the hope it would fix itself quickly for me to bowl again.

I hope people will take all the facts into account in the future when they decide to comment on situations such as these.

 

[CHIN]

I also agree that in a situation such as this one, bowling would be the most distant thing from my mind.

As Hammer stated in the original post, the people invovled received a phone call while on the way to bowling. They changed direction and headed to be with their family obviously. While on the way their I gather they rang their team mates to let them know what had happened & why they wouldnt be there.
They obviously had enough time before they got to where they were going.

Whats the problem. Stop bagging the guys for being considerate enough to notify their team mates they were'nt coming.
Dont try & guess what they were thinking that night after they got the news unless you've been in the same situation yourself.
Thats the problem with this sport & site, to many assholes passing judgement on other people. Thats why this sport is going down hill.

 

[RobbieB]

I know I am a bit behind the 8 ball but having only just joined tonight...
Although I am extremely sorry for the people involved's loss, there is a few things regarding this issue I think people should know:
In the Haro's 2007 Constitution it states exactly:
"15.1 Pre bowling is allowed in this league, post bowling is not allowed"
This was voted on in the Annual General Meeting at the end of last year as it has been every year before. If people were not wanting this to be the ruling they should be present at the these meetings and have their say, otherwise they do not have any right to complain with the rulings made!!!

Blondie,
The point is that this rule (IMHO) is not allowed to be made by the league, as it is in direct violation of an existing TBA rule. If the league is unsanctioned (is it?) then the rule stands. Otherwise, the TBA rulebook takes precedence.

If the league wants to outlaw postbowling they would need a rule that, for instance, expressly requires every bowler in the league to bank one or more emergency prebowls by a specific date, to be used for any absence.

Having said that, if a sub was available and bowled, that is a better option than using an individual postbowl, as it allows the two teams to complete the match on the night. If, however, the two teams agreed to postbowl the entire match and appealed to TBA for the right to do that, I don't think the league would have a leg to stand on even if a sub was available at the time.

 

[Mac Attack]

Great topic for discussion.

In the spirit of the game, I believe that the team involved should not have even considered asking for a post-bowl, because it has only caused grief for all those concerned.

The league rules are there for a reason.

I do not agree with post-bowling. Can anyone give me an example of a sport that allows this to happen? Could I do this for a bowling tournament, say the Melbourne Cup - no?
Why is it that 90% of constitutions do not allow this?
The idea is to try and resolve a decision on win/loss on the night.

Tonx and Chin - spot on the money.

I also do not agree with an emergency pre-bowl (just in case you need it!!)
What if you had a fantastic pre-bowl series - maybe you could ring in sick one night and benefit from the use of it - NOT.

Michael

 

[Andrew S.]

I dont read it the same way as Robbie. Surely you cant have two rules which conflict. One must over-ride the other. Question is which one gets preference?
TBA Rules and Ethics Committee needs to clarify this.

 

[willey]

Mac Attack, now let me see, a One Day Game finished the next day in the recent World Cup (this must be against the rules, I mean a one day game becomes a two day game), lots of Baseball games postponed in the States because of weather, EPL Football games postponed, Golf Tournaments finishing on Monday, gee it must be in thier Rules to POSTpone or they could'nt do it.

willey

 

[Rusty]

WELL I THINK THAT IS JUST A JOKE, SINCE WHEN HAS BOWLING BECOME MORE IMPORTANT THEN FAMILY. I THINK THAT LEAGUE NEEDS TO HAVE GOOD LOOK AT THEM SELVES.. SORRY I WOULD PULL OUT OF THAT LEAGUE AND GO TO ANOTHER LEAGUE IF POSSIBLE.
WAKE UP TO YOURSELVES

 

[Mac Attack]

Mac Attack, now let me see, a One Day Game finished the next day in the recent World Cup (this must be against the rules, I mean a one day game becomes a two day game), lots of Baseball games postponed in the States because of weather, EPL Football games postponed, Golf Tournaments finishing on Monday, gee it must be in thier Rules to POSTpone or they could'nt do it.

willey

Willey,

Yes - true, and not really part of this thread.

But, at least all the players in those sports you have just mentioned had played together as a post "game" (and also due to circumstances beyond their control).

I am not favouring anyone here.

Cheers

 

[Fitzy]

Fitzy, I repeat my question. How can you plan an emergency PRE-bowl for the event that a family member dies within hours of the league starting?
I would think that an emergency POST-bowl would be required in this circumstance on compassionate grounds, and judging by the other posts in this thread the vast majority of other bowlers believe this should have been granted by the league.
David.

Hi David,
Been away for a while so appologize for the delay.

I answered that in my second sentence, probably should have had "in the future" on the end of the setence though ("You don't do an emergency pre bowl for that particular incident, you do one for any type of "emergency" that pops up.").
In the first week you could bowl 2 emergency pre bowls. You do not then have to use them for the next two weeks. They can be "saved" until you need them. I.E. if you need to use them in week 21 and 30 (just some numbers), you use them then. You don't plan for the 1 hour before the league you plan for an occurence that may arise in the future (any time of the league calandar). If you use your prebowl in week 21 bowl another prebowl some other time in the week so you still have two prebowls "waiting" for when you need them.

Hope this explains what I meant.

Again I have no problems with either post or pre bowling but if you have a few pre bowls banked you will only need post bowling for times your out for extended periods (injury for example).

Rhyss.

 

[Fitzy]

David,
I had a similar reply organized. When I thought more I realized (I might be wrong). What they probably mean by "EMERGENCY PRE-BOWL" is that fairly early in the season all teams should bowl 3 games outside of normal league times.
These scores, I assume would be kept by the league secretary & used during the season if required in the case of such an EMERGENCY instead of a team fortfeiting that night. I think someone else sort of explained this. If the scores werent needed by the end of the season they were thrown out.

Oops,

Didnt' read this post before posting last post (too many post['s] in one sentence ). Yep this is what I meant.

Rhyss.

 

[Andrew S.]

A large percentage of leagues hold the averages over from the previous season for the first 9 games. How would the prebowls affect those averages? Would they be part of the 9 game establishment?
And how about new bowlers joining without an average?

I also worry about banking of prebowls - it would be very tempting to pull out a good series at an opportune time, and one of the problems with emergency post bowls is how is the extent of the emergency decided?
And by whom? The Committee? The Captains? or the Entire League?

Everyone has their own idea of what constitutes an emergency.

Along with handicapping systems, pre and post bowling are two major issues that will never achieve unilateral agreement.
TBA really does need to clarify the whole situation.

 

[Fitzy]

A large percentage of leagues hold the averages over from the previous season for the first 9 games. How would the prebowls affect those averages? Would they be part of the 9 game establishment?
And how about new bowlers joining without an average?
I also worry about banking of prebowls - it would be very tempting to pull out a good series at an opportune time, and one of the problems with emergency post bowls is how is the extent of the emergency decided?
And by whom? The Committee? The Captains? or the Entire League?
Everyone has their own idea of what constitutes an emergency.
Along with handicapping systems, pre and post bowling are two major issues that will never achieve unilateral agreement.
TBA really does need to clarify the whole situation.

This really is getting OT now, but,

From what I know (which is not too much) pre-bowls take the average as at the time you use it, you do not apply a handicap to the pre-bowl at the time of the pre-bowl, you put down your scratch scores and when you use it your handicap is added on top (whatever that maybe at the time of use). I do not know if pre-bowl count to the establishment of your handicap or not, someone more knowledgeable than me can answer this (I assume it would though). With banking your pre-bowls, you can't just "pull out a pre-bowl" you have to use the next one in the queue (whether good or bad). <- if I interpreted what you meant correctly, if not, my apologies.

I do agree clarification from TBA is required.

To someone who does know, does a pre-bowl go towards the establishment of your average as if you had bowled at the allotted league time? Or, does it get used for the week but ignored for average establishment (sort of like how a base on ball in baseball does not count towards your batting average)?

 

[KarenMK16]

I think this one's more than a little harsh. Having a family member pass away is one thing; a complete lack of tolerance from your league bowlers and secretary doesn't help.