Scoring pace at junior Nationals?

The Sport of Tenpin Bowling is today what it is, Yesterday it was what it was,
and tomorrow it will be whatever it will be. Our sport will never again be what
it was when we learnt to bowl ( Lacquer Lanes and Plastic Balls ).
The main thing I stress on Juniors when I coach them, Is to have fun and enjoy our great game, whilst learning the basics of the game. When they have matured a bit and start getting more competitive, then is the time to start playing with their head and telling them a few home truths about our
great sport. Meantime, some of the adults that run our sport should take a good look at some of their motives for being involved at all. I saw one kid
bowl one game, win their point, and promptly get pulled, next day, bowled one game, wins point, and again gets pulled, last day actually got to bowl 2 games, wins both points and again gets pulled. What sort of a message does that give to our juniors who we bust our guts to teach to enjoy the sport
in the hope we can boost our numbers somewhat. In case any one is wondering, this junior was not from Qld. If the game is easy it`s easy, so what. Im the first to admit, that if it wasn`t for the modern gear, I would have left the game a long time ago, and while some will say so what, that is the exact attitude that is killing the numbers in our game/Sport. Let the kids
enjoy their Childhood achievements while they can, as the world gets awfully tough from there on in.
Regards
Animal
 
typical and rich coming from some one who only bowls for money,looked for you down here didnt see you though,so you must be assuming the conditions were "easy", why whenever junior bowlers bowl well does some prat that the kids look up to have to have his dig?

Have a go at being positive for a change and if you have to have a moody do it after the tournaments.

Btw,before anybody has a go, Im a bowlers parent using his sons log in cause it pisses me to the max when supposed experts have a waffle.

Definition of an expert= Unknown quantity under pressure.
 
I think a few people are underestimating the knowledge of our juniors. Our centre had the junior nationals a few years back, we set a pretty soft condition and the juniors ate it up. I spoke with plenty of them and they fully realised that the scoring pace in our centre was pretty good, they struck alot and enjoyed themselves. No one walked away thinking they could take on Australia's No 1... and whip them.

Its all about education, its pretty simple... some lane patterns are easier than others. Its our sport, scoring is all relative, the pattern is laid down and you get your chance to play on it. Its educating our juniors on how to play the lanes as they CHANGE.... on easy or tougher patterns.. thats the key to them becoming better players.

All good bowlers junior or adult can repeat shots...but how many can adapt to the lane pattern as it changes....thats the key to taking your game to the next level.

When someone gives you a chance to strike of course you have got to take it.... whether its in league, tournament or even the junior nationals.

Andrew
 
And now lets sit back and watch some great bowling from the final field of eight, boys and girls, as they compete for the Junior Open Masters.
Leanne
 
we took my 4 kids aged 7 to 13 up for week 1 to play in their first Junior Nationals. they all bowled well setting new PB games and series. the looks on their faces when they did so my wife and i will never forget. my oldest shot his first 600 series and his facial expression when he realised he did was priceless. during the week they met up with friends they made at other tournaments we've taken them to and also made many new friends during the course of the week. simply they had a great time and we enjoyed watching them have FUN. there scores are what they are and what there ability allowed them to shoot on the condition layed down. i'm sure when we resume league on monday night different scores will be shot by them due to different lanes and lane condition. as long as they have FUN for the moment that's all that matters to us, after all they are only children. yes we have started schooling them on reading lanes and the more skilled side of our sport but for the moment the emphasis is on them having FUN and enjoying themselves and if shooting big scores is part of that enjoyment them so be it and i'm sure if you ask any junior shooting a high game is more FUN than shooting a low game. the same principle applies to all sports, in golf its more fun to get a par or birdie than it is a bogey or double bogey is it not?

just my 2 cents
shoey
 
My 'Competitive league' partner shot his first 700 (732) up at these nationals, & says the shot is easy as, as long as you know how to adjust. He averages just around 180 at our home center, but he has averaged close to 200 these whole nationals. Good on him, I know he has great potential, & is going to be a really good bowler. He was expecting something to test his ability, not exageratedly enhance it. & I'm sure he wasn't the only junior with this mindset either.

Uh, macca's parent: I don't understand how George is being moody. I'm sure he has a bit more moral than to pick on 'juniors' of our sport. Also, maybe read everyone elses posts, & you will see a lot of are agreeing with what he said.
 
This may not make me any friends but I really don't care.

How about a little bit of reality here?

All those at the Junior Nationals deserve to be there one way or another. All of them bowled on the same conditions. All of those who did well deserve their outcomes.

Only an idiot would expect a centre to put down a certain condition to suit what people think should happen. Most (or all) of us have been away and bowled on both easy and difficult conditions. Personally I enjoy the sport and the people and while I have a couple of centres I don't like, I don't criticize them for any conditions they lay down.

It's about time some of you know-alls started promoting things like the Junior Nationals instead of using every opportunity to complain about every little thing.

I am sure the kids enjoyed themselves, the event was great and everyone else had a good time. Isn't that what it is all about?
 
I'm in agreement with Frawls on this one. While I don't believe the condition should be stupid easy everywhere you go, there have always been shoot-outs. If you're lucky enough to win on one, you deserve the title of champion just as much as if you had won on a grind out.

What I saw was a couple of young bowlers who came into these Nationals with a 183 and a 167 book average. These two Champions blistered the lanes, averaging 40+ pins over their league averages. Just maybe, the extra confidence that these kids gained during the past two weeks, will propel them on to a long and successful bowling career. I know it's possible, because it happened to me! If our kids bowl on nothing but grind outs, they'll never know how to take full advantage when area is given to them.
 
The cost is a contributing factor, I have 2 boys who bowl. Thats $40 a week just for them to play league then you include going down for 3 practice games thats another $25 not all families can afford it. I know for one that $65 a week certainly a fair hit in the hip pocket, some weeks they don't get a practice game. Then if you include 1 off tournaments or here on the north coast the Storm challenge it all adds up. A couple of weeks ago they played in the Coca-Cola Strikers here at Port Macquarie and it cost us $100 for the weekend just for bowling and they didn't play half as many games as some of the juniors.
I am pleased to say that my eldest and his partner won the doubles.
 
i wish to throw George's initial question back onto him. firstly i wish to stress i mean no disrespect to Aldo and Marissa Belmonte, Orange Tenpin Bowl and BMW NSW Country Cup organisers and sponsors with what i'm about to say.

George just competed in this tournament where out of 64 bowlers the top 35 averaged 200+ in qualifying alone. of the top 32 bowlers who made the cut the games stats are as follows:

200-209 51 games; 210-219 44 games; 220-229 40 games; 230-239 34 games; 240-249 30 games; 250-259 5 games; 260 -269 5 games; 270+ 1 games. and this is in qualifying only and only half the field. so for the top 32 bowlers bowling 320 games in qualifying these bowlers have bowled a staggering 211 games or 66% of them over 200. does this not indicate that bowlers are better equipped, prepared, coached and knowledgeable about the game to produce these numbers.

looking around the bowlers at the Mt Gravatt Nationals these kids are well equipped, have great support from Managers, parents, Grand parents etc etc not to mention they are well coached by the numerous coaches that were in attendance let alone those that were not.

my point is, credit where credit is due. these kids accepted the condition they were presented with and bowled accordingly. when changes were required they changed. it was as simple as that. my 9 year old has just started finger tip and using a reactive and we have also been teaching him how to read lanes and shot different strike lines and he was making or asking about making these adjustments when he felt they may have been required.

George i'm not being critical of your question about scoring pace but you only have to look at the scoring of other events adult, junior and senior to realise it has happened before and is going to happen again and again.

i also don't think it helps that the oil pattern is made public prior to the event allowing teams to have centres or even centres themselves to lay that pattern down for training sessions in the time prior to the event. i guess it takes the requirement for bowlers to read the lane for breakdown of pattern from ball one, and for i guess the length of time the training session runs for, out of the equation a bit. yes i know different climate and all that but it still allows for prior knowledge doesn't it. this is itself gives those who can do this a huge advantage over those who cannot, for example our home centre uses an old Century 100 oil machine it cant be programmed like a kegel can. my point is by making patterns public TBA does give those with access to technology to be able to lay the same pattern down for practice a huge advantage over those who dont and cannot.

Shoey
 
Wow, it would appear that everyone has an opinion in regards to this subject. I'd like to clarify some things first of all....

I never onced blamed the kids, I was at the opening with Jason and spoke to heaps of kids and even had some photos taken with a few of them. I signed some shirts, magazines and banners, I had a great time speaking with a lot of them. They are not to blame in this instance, they were merely bowling on what they were given.

Yes I bowl for money, last time I checked there was nothing wrong with that. I give back a fair bit back to the sport, I do seminars, talks, ball demos and drill balls for a lot youth and junior bowlers. I know this is a lot more than most elite players in this country. I do this because it was something that was never given to me as a junior, I want only the best for the future generations of the sport.

The problem that I raised is that the scoring pace set by TBA was in my mind too high for such a high profile tournament. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in adult events either, eg. AO in 2007 where I avg almost 250 for 31 games. That pattern though was laid by AMF, as independent tournament promoters they have a right to lay whatever they like. This is the Nationals, big difference.

The only issue I am trying to raise is FUTURE DEVELOPMENT. The best bowlers in the country now bowled on difficult patterns from a very early age. The sharp learning curve and ability to grind it out on some tougher patterns have made them what they are today. Times are different now, we have more education and have learnt how to manipulate patterns to change the scoring pace. If juniors are constantly exposed to high avg patterns where is the education? where is the development. The only message we are sending now is throw it in the general direction of the gutter and it will come back.

This is also where we lose alot of junior bowlers who never make the transition to adult. They bowl in their junior events on softer patterns, bowl something with the adults, avg 30 pins less than they usually would and then give up or just turn into league hacks.

I believe its TBA's role to not only create pathways for juniors but provide them education and development for the future. I personally feel laying conditions like this achieve nothing for the kids except for a false hope of how good they really are.

Congrats to all the juniors who bowled great, it would appear the best bowlers won.

Thats all today :D
 
George, this might have cleared up some confusion had you have put all of that down in the first place.

i agree 100% with what you have now said.

the bigegst problem i have is to bring my 4 kids back to earth for bowling at our home centre. there nationals campaign was 39, 33, 19 and 16 over entering and current averages. my wife and i are very concerned that they will expect such scoring when we return to league tonight and if it doesn't happen we have to go into damage control when realistically we should not need to had the pattern been a test of there skill and acquired knowledge to date.

and by the way i think we all bowl for money, you are not the only one. most won't enter a tournament if they do not think they'll cut and cash as it costs too much to get there and play in the first place so they don't compete if they do not have an expectation of cashing. our leagues payout cash not trophies and the like.

Shoey
 
This is what I would also like to add.....

I would have like to see TBA host the following at Junior Nationals

# Seminar by some of Australia's elite bowlers about National and International competition
# A ball drilling course on offer
# A seminar on ball coverstocks, core physics and bowling ball maintenance.
# A seminar on psychology
# A seminar on lane conditions, oil and surface differences

etc etc

This should be not only the National Championship but a week in which Australian juniors can get together in the one location and learn more about the game.

Again, just my views
 
With all the points raised it seems we need a 2020 event, or more appropriately a 2010.

Lets have one formatted at the AGM: each state organisation be given an area of concern, ideas to be floated at their own forum level and collated.
Can be by meeting or information sharing etc. Feed back to TBA via selected contacts in each state.

Very basic: Victoria looks at Pathways, Queensland looks at Coaching, NSW looks at Tournament Management (Warners Bay 09), etc. Overview, identify the bowlers concerns, make practical suggestions, 6 month deadline. Don't sweat the little stuff but make changes to the big picture.

TBA to take it the next step with assistance from contacts in each state. Recommendations advertised to all, next AGM present future for Tenpin Bowling in Australia.

Leanne.
 
i no that when ever i go away for competitions i always bowl over my everage.

so when it comes to a comp like nationals and shield, and us juniors bowl high scores and kill our averages, it comes down to the pattern being easy??

i believe that the high scores is from the persons strive to do better than any other bowler that is there!

isnt that what we went away for?
to beat the other states and bring home the cup and shield??
i no thats what us Vic Chicks went out to do!
and we all bowled awesome!
and bought home the cup!

and no one can say that the patterns were easy!
we alll struggled at one point or another!

dont take bowling well away from us juniors.
just kills the strive.

thats just my two cents worth
 
GeorgeF said:
This is what I would also like to add.....
I would have like to see TBA host the following at Junior Nationals
# Seminar by some of Australia's elite bowlers about National and International competition
# A ball drilling course on offer
# A seminar on ball coverstocks, core physics and bowling ball maintenance.
# A seminar on psychology
# A seminar on lane conditions, oil and surface differences
etc etc
This should be not only the National Championship but a week in which Australian juniors can get together in the one location and learn more about the game.
Again, just my views
Click to expand...


aren't these sort of events run during the course of the year and aren't they cancelled or postponed more often than not due to lack of interest. our people trained to present these make themselves available continually to do these sort of things and are continually beaten down via lack of interest. there was a ball drilling course TBAQ organised during middle weekend of Junior nationals 7 people were booked to attend and only 4 showed up, does this tell you something. i can't see how doing it as part of a 2 week nationals event will make it any different. besides when would there be time for all the juniors to bowl and do these given the schedule of events available to start with.

Shoey
 
GeorgeF said:
I would have like to see TBA host the following at Junior Nationals
... (list removed for brevity)
This should be not only the National Championship but a week in which Australian juniors can get together in the one location and learn more about the game.
Click to expand...
As I recall, back in 2005 I think (it was Juniors in Canberra), June tried to run just two seminars. One was about actually knowing the rules of the sport - such a fundamental concept - and both of those were unfortunately a flop.

Point is, TBA have tried to do these things in the past and nobody put in the effort to support them. But, if anyone (not just the kids) can go away to an event and shoot down the house, why put in the effort to learn to improve?

I've built my game to a point I'm happy with, I don't practice any more, I haven't even bowled championships much over the last few years. I'm not interested in attending such seminars because I don't have a desire to improve. If I had to work harder to shoot 240's, maybe I would want to improve again. Competitors at these events are shooting 240's blindfolded, they don't need to improve, so they don't bother.

Brings us back to the easy condition - if scoring was harder we'd make better bowlers
 
This comes back to topics raised long ago, and that is that it is pointless to put out these tighter conditions at tournaments if centres can continue to put out 10:1+ ratios for leagues.

This is how you lose numbers, when those that can't easily practice on the tougher conditions, turn up to these tournaments with the tougher conditions and can't compete. In terms of a national tournament for say $280 for what would most likely only be 10 games and no return, most people could find better ways to spend that $280 (a nice family weekend away is one example).

While I do think the Junior Nationals pattern was a little too open, the centre characteristics also added to the overall picture.
 
Hey,

Ok, yes the pattern was a little easy, i mean four 300's shot during the event is crazy.

But if you actually looked at the scores and you actually bowled, you'd find that you still had to hit your target. If you went two far out wide, no chance of coming back, and two far inside, the ball just skidded and drove through the 3 pin.

So yes, we were rewarded for making good shots, but they were just that, good shots!!

This can easily be seen during shield, i know quite a few bowlers, myself included, who shot a high 250 or 260 game then shot a low 160-170 game straight after.

So in summing up, yes the lanes were a little easy, but even then, you still had to hit your target and make your spares to bowl well. and in the end, the bowlers who hit their targets and made their spares consistently were the ones that were at the top.
 
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