A question for you all

[jockey]

Having recently re-read the famous "High Tech Balls" and "Billy Hardwick" threads originally on the PBA forum I was wondering this:

Given that it will be hard for the ABC to ban reactive technology balls altogether. If they were unable to impose a reasonable surface friction limit and restrictions of the pin placement and weight block influences on the dynamics of the ball.

Do you think that we would see a mass exodus of bowlers if the ABC tried to attack the scoring credibility problem in our sport by taking the path of using:
1. Lane conditioning (only sanctioning credible sports conditions or in other words forcing bowling centres to put them down for their leagues);
2. The pins (increasing the weight of the pins and removing any voids in the pins);
3. Restricting the materials that can be used in the kick backs and back end parts of the lane (to reduce the amount of bounce imparted on the pins by these surfaces).

Ideally the combined efforts of these three changes would be aimed at bringing the 'par' in bowling back to what it was synonomously associated with, that of a '200' average and also to restore some sense of actual acheivement to the bowling of a '300'. This would also remove the problem the recent spate of 900's have caused for the credibility of the sport as no '900' has been bowled on a sports condition.

Also, if the ABC is currently recognizing 900 series for these 'cheater' balls then do you all agree with me that they should retrospectively recognize Glen Allisons 900.

I would be interested to see what you all think.

 

[rambo1]

you can't stop technology Terry, the biggest problem to the blowout in scores is lane conditioning does not matter what ball you have if it doesn't find friction it will not do much in my opinion what is needed but will never happen maybe because of expense or maybe it cannot be done are OIL FREE lanes eg: first part of the lanes to be of slicker surface, 2nd part of lane a little friction & the last part a little more friction this will ensure accuracy with pin carry as well also this would end left & right arguing.
i feel sure in this day & age this can be achieved but vested interests will not allow it

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Heavier and Non Voided pins
Deeper flat gutters
Dead kickback material

These three factors will decrease scoring without touching lane conditions. It would mean no more flying scouts, many fewer love taps and more pocket splits. Players won't lose the pocket that they have become so accustomed to hitting with their eyes closed.

Whilst I am not in favour of inflated scoring environments, there has been a history of inflated scoring in bowling over the decades, but it was more the elite players able to take advantage of the open shots of the day. I believe that by toughening the pin deck area as described above, it will once again widen the gulf between the elite and average players

 

[bowlrig]

. If they were unable to impose a reasonable surface friction limit and restrictions of the pin placement and weight block influences on the dynamics of the ball.This should be done

Do you think that we would see a mass exodus of bowlers if the ABC tried to attack the scoring credibility problem in our sport by taking the path of using:
1. Lane conditioning (only sanctioning credible sports conditions or in other words forcing bowling centres to put them down for their leagues);This will never happen because owner/manager #1 will not let his business go down the road to another centre.
2. The pins (increasing the weight of the pins and removing any voids in the pins); This is a possiblity
3. Restricting the materials that can be used in the kick backs and back end parts of the lane (to reduce the amount of bounce imparted on the pins by these surfaces).Hard to police when I will have to remove all my flat gutters every two years to be inspected

Just my thoughts

Rob

 

[jimcross]

Brenton, you're right. That's the way to go. Best of all, it's achievable. I'd be in favour of winding back technology - balls, lane s, etc, but, realistically, it's not possible. It's a pipe dream.

 

[magpi17]

My question is pretty simple:
What percentage of bowlers have bowled a 300?
Indeed how many times does the normal Joe bowl over 240?
Are we trying to stop normal bowlers enjoy a high game now and then, technology will only make the better bowlers better and you can't tell me for second that they don't enjoy it and a technically better bowler will always out bowl average Joe.
Embrace technology other sports have.

 

[Troyza]

Deeper flat gutters - this works a charm, trust me. League bowlers believe our pins are off spot because it is really hard to carry the corners - having gone through every single pin personally, I can tell these people that our pins are all legally on spot.
I'm not sure who set our flat gutters, but they are all at the maximum depth allowed - I don't really see a problem with this considering how easy our condition is, it really does call for greater accuracy. (as well as frustrate bowlers)

The problem is, if you try explaining just how much flat gutter depth can effect pin carry, rarely does anyone believe it.

Maybe lowering flat gutters in easy centers will help retain a bit more credability for our sport.

 

[Roysa]

My question is pretty simple:
What percentage of bowlers have bowled a 300?
Indeed how many times does the normal Joe bowl over 240?
Are we trying to stop normal bowlers enjoy a high game now and then, technology will only make the better bowlers better and you can't tell me for second that they don't enjoy it and a technically better bowler will always out bowl average Joe.
Embrace technology other sports have.

Good post.

 

[Geoff300]

My question is pretty simple:
What percentage of bowlers have bowled a 300?
Indeed how many times does the normal Joe bowl over 240?
Are we trying to stop normal bowlers enjoy a high game now and then, technology will only make the better bowlers better and you can't tell me for second that they don't enjoy it and a technically better bowler will always out bowl average Joe.
Embrace technology other sports have.

When reactive resin balls hit the Australian Market it
turned 150 / 160 average bowlers into 190+ average
bowlers overnight
They did not "learn" to be better bowlers overnight !!!!

I have seen many, many 300 games bowled.
I have seen many bowled that should have been 250 games at best
If not for the Bowling Ball and Lane conditions doing what the
bowler has not been able to do on his own.

Having an area of around 7 boards in width for a target and still hit
the pocket and Strike 12 times is not what I call a perfect game

But hey dont let me stand in the way of progress

 

[willey]

Now let's see, I will start with the Pins; Make them heavier? in my 36 years of working in the Centre's, Pins increased in weight from 2 pound 10ounces to 3 pound 8, so that hasn't decreased the scoring, if you keep increasing the weight this will hurt Juniors Ladies and Seniors. Also most Top Men Bowlers use 15 pound Balls, this has also increased the weight of the Pins on a bigger Ratio to Ball difference, so if an increased weight of Pin, might just mean the Men go back to 16 pound again, defeating the desired purpose. To me the Pins aren't the problem, they are considerably Heavier than they used to be with an increase in scoring.

Now for the Backends, again I worked in predominately AMF Centres, those that had AMF Machines and Kickbacks had a definate lower bounce than the older Brunswick Centre set-ups, mainly because the Kickback ended just behind the Pindeck, whereas the older Brunswick equipped centres the Kickback went to the end of the Machine, so was a lot more Solid. I worked in some of the older AMF Centres where the Kickbacks were Cracked, the Fibre coverings were Bubbled the Flat Gutters were loose with Gaps, so nothing was Tight, (this is what Brenton talks about when he mentions real scoring in the Dark Ages, it was lousy Maintenance really).

Lane oiling, I have always been an advocate for LESS oil, the less oil the more the Reactive becomes useless, it will cause the Bowlers to use less surface, less exotics and probably a different Ball. As for using Sport Bowling Oil Patterns, this will favour the Big Hands. The Oils used today compared to yesterday have no comparison, you could oil the Lanes with as many units as you like with the old style oils and they wouldn't last 5 minutes with todays Reactives, todays oils are so much more slippery it is unbelievable.

The High Scoring of Today is "Angle of Entry", pure and simple. To have less Grip on the Balls, this was ratified, no Ball was to be Grippier than the Blue Hammer and they aren't, but the Reactives have a bigger Footprint so grip more because of that fact, They have reduced the amount of imbalance in the Balls, this has all been happening, but it hasn't decreased the scoring.

Personally I don't mind the High Scoring I used to spend a lot of time and tried many things to achieve higher scoring, what I don't like is tricking up the Lanes to lower the Scoring, this will only Trip up some Bowlers but not others, this is like taking out the Left Handers by giving them a different Condition, I know what your Saying, Left Handers really think they can Bowl but us Right Handers know better. So if it has to be a Carry Contest than thats exactly how it has always Been.

willey

 

[John_Velo]

Gday all,

Just my two cents worth. Cheapest option for centers would be lane condition changes. Business don't want to fork out cash for expensive changes.

Maybe offer sports leagues for the serious. THS for non-sports leagues. Bowlers would have a choice. Challenging or relaxed.

 

[Troyza]

I don't know john, changing conditioning with todays current lane machine technology isn't as easy as people believe. Despite what some people think, you can't just change a condition & expect it to lay properly straight away - it does take time to set in. Changing between a sport condition & THS may result in underlying issues (one that comes to mind - when changing from sport to THS, the condition being laid may be inconsistant week to week, & possibly league to league, or so i have been lead to believe.) Not to mention all that extra oil going down the lane & into the machinery - people wonder why some techs like a dry condition. The less oil transferring from balls to pins, then from pins through the pin setter, the cleaner it stays, the better it runs essentially (that MAY be up for debate in some cases... but a pin setter should be clean anyways) which means happy bowlers. Also, the extra oil being used will add up in $$$ eventually. Though... without the extra oil being laid, you do get surface damage to the lane, which would eventually cost an arm & a leg anyways. I don't know, there are hundreds of sides to this debate, & none of them are wrong, really. I agree that laying more oil, & a tougher condition would be a sollution, but I couldn't support changing conditions from league to league.
Well maintained & set pindecks, gutters & kick backs play a larger part in scoring than people believe, though. Especially the non-slide brunswick pindecks, & urothane (sp?) flat gutters.

 

[Aussie]

Dream on, R.I.P Bowling, with the cost of electricity going up. There wont be a lot of bowling centers around in a few years.
Its too late to change anything now the damage has already been done.

 

[twenban]

Brenton is on the money with simple changes that would make scoring lower. The best part about making lower scoring is more competition, more people will be competitive and hopefully this would increase entries. Bigger prize money etc, this would hopefully snowball into a bigger sport.

 

[jockey]

Thanks to all who have taken the time to put there thoughts forward.

Brenton:
I think the adressing of those issues at the back you mentioned will be of great benefit.

However with the damage these balls impart on the lane surface, ultimately drastically reducing the usable life of the lanes do you think that there has to be some sort of rules brought in to address this aspect of the scoring issue. I am not only refering to the need to protect the lane surface but the interelated extreme angle to the pocket that these balls allow even the novice bowler to achieve.

I personally believe that without this issue being also addressed by either putting some form of restriction on the 'grab' rating of the ball surface or by forcing a minimum / maximum amount of units per oil at certain lenghts of the lane to nullify the grabbing effect of the ball then the game as a whole is in serious trouble.

This belief comes from the fact that the proprietors having been sold lanes on the basis of say a 20 odd year lifespan are suddenly finding they have to find the money to replace those lanes in say 5 - 10 odd years as the lane track is irrepairable by oiling or resurfacing.

How many people, thinking of to putting together the large investment that's required for a centre, are going to do so if they only realistically have five to ten years to realistically profit from that investment? How many centres will ultimately close?

 

[willey]

Terry, your talking about a "Catch 22" scenario, the More Oil you put on a Lane the Rougher the Surface of the Ball has to be, which Tears up the Surface of the Lane. It's obvious that Less Oil is the only solution, than we have Polished Balls or even Plastic, what a thought.

willey

 

[Ryan_E]

A rough ball on heavy oil.
A slick ball on very minor oil.

the slick ball would simply tear up the surface earlier? Correct?

 

[jockey]

Terry, your talking about a "Catch 22" scenario, the More Oil you put on a Lane the Rougher the Surface of the Ball has to be, which Tears up the Surface of the Lane. It's obvious that Less Oil is the only solution, than we have Polished Balls or even Plastic, what a thought.

willey

Willey

You are right about the catch 22, but less oil means that the lanes usable lifespan is drastically reduced. It is not only the scoring that needs to be brought back to earth but there is also the need to prolong the usable life of the lanes.

Synthetic lanes wear away and need to be resurfaced too. This cycle is happening at a dramatically accelerated rate due to the new ball surfaces. The primary culprit being the particle balls. In my opinion they should be banned altogether.

The biggest problem with the reactives although they do contribute to this lane wear is the angle of entry they create into the pocket because of their grab effect on the lane surface. By carefully managing the amount of oil that is distributed down the length of the lane you can reduce this angle of entry to the pocket and also alleviate the damage the ball surface is imparting on the lane surface.

Banning particle balls and then combining the application of lane conditioning practices to nullify the reactive ball grab effect with Brenton's suggestions for what to do at the back end of the lanes is the best possible solution I believe to bring the scoring in bowling back to a realistic and 'sport growth' promoting level.

The problem is that the current ruling bodies do not currently have the balls (no pun intended) to do this.

 

[Troyza]

A rough ball on heavy oil.
A slick ball on very minor oil.

the slick ball would simply tear up the surface earlier? Correct?

Either way, both balls are grabbing the surface of the lane to hook, so they are both wearing down the lane. The problem with lane wear is that once it is worn beyond repair, you can't really lay oil down to accomodate, or you get a drastic over/under shot, because balls all of a sudden find a fresh part of the lane surface, & can't grab anywhere near as well due to less friction.

People using dull / particle gear on dry house conditions (because they feel they need to swing the ball 20 boards) are the main culprit.

 

[magpi17]

I agree with the comments above.
I bowl in a friction house, wooden lanes and you see people here buying Balls that are made to be aggresive then when they hook that much they go Brooky all the time they go crook. Most people that bowl here from other centres get very frustrated,and indeed the of bowlers dont understand the concept of ball surfaces or just plain think i bought the latest and greatest and it should do the job. I didn't understand until my son started to compete in some tournements and we recieved advice from a lot of people, very good advice for tournement bowling but stuff normal bowlers dont understand or use.
By the way with all the technology around and all these easy 300 games being bowled, the centre at Taree has NEVER had a 300 bowled EVER. I invite the people here that say you just roll up and bowl and hey presto 300 to come and have a crack at it.