What do people want to see

[jason_doust]

Well, George and I are on the same page! I'm glad to see that we can't both be wrong all of the time!

Good points all the way through George. I'll bring backup on the point of excitement. Excitement and enthusiasm are infectious. If we are are boring to watch it is our own fault as well as that of the "Nanny State" administrators who seek to ban fun beyond polite dinner table conversation. To bring tournaments to life, we need to look and act alive ourselves. Brenton's comments about automatons rings true to me. TBA, are you listening?

They banned bright pants at the K&K??? SHAME on the thought police! I've a good mind to get some old pairs out of the archives in protest! (Zebra skin or Papal Guard stripes..?) If that's true, then
EVERYBODY IN THE K&K CLASSIC MUST WEAR BRIGHT PANTS!! See if they kick everybody out...

And yes, the national league score cheating program (10-10 blocks everywhere) hasn't helped anything, anywhere, anytime, except to shore up ego's that think their league average actually means something without them having to actually do anything for it. (Look at my big... average!) There were a lot more league bowlers in the 80's and the house I grew up in had exactly no bowlers averaging 200. The score is the score and competition remains regardless. In fact, lower scores generally tighten the competitive ranks.

We had an ACTTBA event recently and I got to play the very edge of the lane. There was a real crowd buzz about it. People just don't get to see that stuff in league, because there's normally not enough oil out there to do that. That part of the lane is usually too dry in tournaments or worse, out of bounds, so Joe League can't see the difference when he comes in and sees all the "good bowlers" with a board or two of where he plays on Tuesday nights.

As my wife said to me at a concert recently "I don't want my pop stars to look like accountants or a wedding party! I want stars to look different to the rest of us." I suspect people want to see what they don't see every week.

That would be an event.

 

[nev25]

Well, George and I are on the same page! I'm glad to see that we can't both be wrong all of the time!

Good points all the way through George. I'll bring backup on the point of excitement. Excitement and enthusiasm are infectious. If we are are boring to watch it is our own fault as well as that of the "Nanny State" administrators who seek to ban fun beyond polite dinner table conversation. To bring tournaments to life, we need to look and act alive ourselves. Brenton's comments about automatons rings true to me. TBA, are you listening?

They banned bright pants at the K&K??? SHAME on the thought police! I've a good mind to get some old pairs out of the archives in protest! (Zebra skin or Papal Guard stripes..?) If that's true, then
EVERYBODY IN THE K&K CLASSIC MUST WEAR BRIGHT PANTS!! See if they kick everybody out...

And yes, the national league score cheating program (10-10 blocks everywhere) hasn't helped anything, anywhere, anytime, except to shore up ego's that think their league average actually means something without them having to actually do anything for it. (Look at my big... average!) There were a lot more league bowlers in the 80's and the house I grew up in had exactly no bowlers averaging 200. The score is the score and competition remains regardless. In fact, lower scores generally tighten the competitive ranks.

We had an ACTTBA event recently and I got to play the very edge of the lane. There was a real crowd buzz about it. People just don't get to see that stuff in league, because there's normally not enough oil out there to do that. That part of the lane is usually too dry in tournaments or worse, out of bounds, so Joe League can't see the difference when he comes in and sees all the "good bowlers" with a board or two of where he plays on Tuesday nights.

As my wife said to me at a concert recently "I don't want my pop stars to look like accountants or a wedding party! I want stars to look different to the rest of us." I suspect people want to see what they don't see every week.

That would be an event.

Once again you are talking about the top end of the sport
There simply isn't enough people at the bottom end to support it!!

 

[jockey]

Cell

You raise good points but I did qualify my statement by adding 'in general' rather than making it a strict statement meaning all proprietors.

I have to disagree with you however on your lane conditioning comments as just about all centres lay down conditions to encourage bowlers through the door (high scoring ones). Yes some accommodate sports bowling but they are a very small minority.

I also fail to see how you think getting participation numbers up corresponds to social play. The general social play participant does not give a toss about this game or considers it as a sport. It is just a sideshow as sadly so are some of the centres becoming (i.e. lasertag etc.).

The only way to grow our game as a sport is to get league numbers up and try to groom enough of those numbers into tournament level players. However this is not going to happen with the current state of play as far as proprietors are concerned due to their current interest in the fast buck (social and birthdays) rather than growing their revenue base through long term play.

The one thing all of us know is true is that without a strong and powerful national body behind it our fledgling sport is doomed to a slow, painful demise.

What's required: Get a strong respected, open, National body; Fix scoring farce; Increase participant numbers; Instigate sound development pathways; Grow and promote sponsors; Implement a viable strong tournament program.

How do we do it: Well hopefully through all contributing to this thread, forum, involved in our 'sport' enough viable ideas are generated to allow the commencement of a way to do it.

Time frame: Bowling as a sport is more than likely going to get a lot worse before we see any progress towards that light at the end of the tunnel we want to acheive. Why I say that is (and I admit I am a party to it) there is too much *****ing and moaning about who's doing what, or not doing what and very little of what we really need, of a roll up your sleeves and lets get it done attitude.

Everyone needs to sit back and say alright what do 'I' have to do to help get this done and then at least attempt to acheive that first goal (whether that be getting their league to sanction with the TBA, or start using sports patterns etc.). As that annoying add theme says 'from little things big things grow'. One person or entity cannot getus where we need to be it is going to take all of us to get bowling recognised as a 'sport' so now the balls (hammers for me!) are in your court.

Question 1: How many of you have been in a bowl and while watching some social bowlers before heading off observed one or even more who display a bit of talent at the game. If your answer is Yes read on.

Question 2: How many of you have actually approached them to ask them if they bowl or are interested in bowling in a league. If your asnwer is never then I think you can see the problem with our sport in a small way may lie with that person you see staring back at you in the mirror every morning.

Question 3: Our sport depends on what you will do next time you observe a somewhat talented bowler in social play. The call is up to you.

 

[CSP]

After reading all the posts, all of them had great points to show why the sport is not moving forward.

Here are my thoughts on the state of tenpin in Australia;

1. Tournaments and leagues are now to expensive to enter for the average player or beginner looking to improve their game to compete.

2. Practice games are at least $5 per game. Practice makes perfect as the saying goes and people cannot afford to practice 20 games per week. Free practice needs to be used at centres when their is a quiet time for the players to improve their games.

3. Tenpin Bowling needs to be shown on Commercial & Pay TV for exposure.

4. George was correct with promoters introducing the champions of today and also the locals that have entered that event. Get some hipe and atmosphere at the tournament. Pro-Ams on the saturday night, getting the social play to bowl with the stars of the game.

 

[Roysa]

After reading all the posts, all of them had great points to show why the sport is not moving forward.

Here are my thoughts on the state of tenpin in Australia;

1. Tournaments and leagues are now to expensive to enter for the average player or beginner looking to improve their game to compete.

2. Practice games are at least $5 per game. Practice makes perfect as the saying goes and people cannot afford to practice 20 games per week. Free practice needs to be used at centres when their is a quiet time for the players to improve their games.

3. Tenpin Bowling needs to be shown on Commercial & Pay TV for exposure.

4. George was correct with promoters introducing the champions of today and also the locals that have entered that event. Get some hipe and atmosphere at the tournament. Pro-Ams on the saturday night, getting the social play to bowl with the stars of the game.

Point # 2 is very relevant...

I can and have walked into centres in sydney metro at 6pm on a sunday night and there has been 5 people in there. 3 of which work their. Also weekdays, ive been the only bowler in a centre at 11am on a weekday, admittedly most people are at work but if the centre is open why wouldnt managers do a deal to get people in for 6 games at even $3 each.

I suppose the question remains how expensive is a lane with no one bowling on it?

 

[Brenton_Davy]

After reading all the posts, all of them had great points to show why the sport is not moving forward.

Here are my thoughts on the state of tenpin in Australia;

1. Tournaments and leagues are now to expensive to enter for the average player or beginner looking to improve their game to compete.

2. Practice games are at least $5 per game. Practice makes perfect as the saying goes and people cannot afford to practice 20 games per week. Free practice needs to be used at centres when their is a quiet time for the players to improve their games.

3. Tenpin Bowling needs to be shown on Commercial & Pay TV for exposure.

4. George was correct with promoters introducing the champions of today and also the locals that have entered that event. Get some hipe and atmosphere at the tournament. Pro-Ams on the saturday night, getting the social play to bowl with the stars of the game.

Further to point #1, the need to constantly upgrade their equipment also has to be taken into account when considering tournament expenses. Failure to keep up with latest technology and "new ball carry" makes it almost impossible for most players to compete with sponsored or financially well off bowlers.

 

[Belly]

Here are some of my thoughts and ideas, having been involved in the Melbourne Cup for many years when we charged people to come and watch the event.

1. At the time of the crowds there were only about 3-4 main events, Melbourne Cup, SA cup, Sth Pacific, Australian Open therefore these events where significant and exciting to watch the best compete

2. The formats I believe were much better, one entry, bowl qualifying and then make matchplay not events where bowlers can make the matchplay of an Australian Open or Melbourne Cup on one game what a disgrace

3 Here is an idea I have had for several years to lift the profiles of top bowlers. Bowlers who hold a Silver card are not allowed to bowl in handicap leagues, must only compete in Singles Leagues for Silver Card holders. To be eligible to have a silver card a bowler must be able to have obtained a 200+ average in league.

4. Create events that only qualifed silver card holders can compete in so therefore the only way people can see the best bowlers compete is to go and watch one of these events, make these bowlers "Elite"

 

[GoTheCell]

Lets all go back to trying to improve the leagues we have and get stuff for the league bowlers. Forget the fact that league numbers are going down as there just aren't enough people bowling socially then taking up a league afterwards.

Like I said, you lot are too narrow minded to see the real picture and until you open your eyes the sport will remain dead in the water.

Get people interested first then worry about issues with league etc. Without the people walking in the door you wont have a league to start with.

 

[Geoff300]

Lets all go back to trying to improve the leagues we have and get stuff for the league bowlers. Forget the fact that league numbers are going down as there just aren't enough people bowling socially then taking up a league afterwards.

Like I said, you lot are too narrow minded to see the real picture and until you open your eyes the sport will remain dead in the water.

Get people interested first then worry about issues with league etc. Without the people walking in the door you wont have a league to start with.

So given we are all too narrow minded to see the real picture
why don't you let us all know just what the real picture is

The reality is we have an increasing rate of participation in bowling
So we have the people comming in the door already, The problem
is nobody, Generally speaking, in Bowling Centres have staff who
talk to social bowlers in an attempt to convert them into regular
League bowlers

We also need people to join the TBA
Without a strong association you have no one to promote
for you or provide services required to develop the sport

 

[GoTheCell]

why don't you let us all know just what the real picture is ummm, didn't I just do that?

The reality is we have an increasing rate of participation in bowling
So we have the people comming in the door already, The problem
is nobody, Generally speaking, in Bowling Centres have staff who
talk to social bowlers in an attempt to convert them into regular
League bowlers and I also said you need to get social bowlers in and joining leagues

We also need people to join the TBA
Without a strong association you have no one to promote
for you or provide services required to develop the sport You need the ground work done to get bowlers in socially and then joining leagues. I am sick of this whole "join TBA" issue when in reality they do nothing apart from a little advertising and trying to look after the top end. It is the centres and bowlers who get others in, not the TBA

one day someone will actually read one of my posts.

 

[GoTheCell]

2. Practice games are at least $5 per game. Practice makes perfect as the saying goes and people cannot afford to practice 20 games per week. Free practice needs to be used at centres when their is a quiet time for the players to improve their games.

20 league bowlers bowling 100 practice games a week only gives you 20 league bowlers. The incentive of being able to practice free might encourage a few people to join a league though so I would say offer it to new bowlers only. Maybe one night a week for their first 6 months or so they can practice for free.

There needs to be an increase in numbers, simple as that. How many of you bowl in a league that was more teams and maybe more people per team a few years ago? Therein lies the problem.

Same thing all the time. Get social bowlers in and talk a few into bowling league.

 

[Magpie17]

I am very new to Tournament bowling, don't bowl the tournaments but my son has been.
As a spectator at the few tournies we have been to I have found that the bowlers themselves along with the Centre owners are very accomodating with tips and comments. But to the reason I don't bowl, I have a pretty scetzy ave of around 170 (I miss more spares than I have dinners) but as much as I would like to have a go I know my limits and can only donate X amount per year, this is not a knock on the bowlers that do enter but maybe from an average League bowler this may be the conception. Why not in some of the larger and better attended tournies have a grading system after say 20 games, this would maybe get the interest in the average league bowler to enter more tournies and therefore join the ranks.
I very much enjoy watching from the sidelines and when we attend tournies we stay for the duration regardless if Dazz makes the cut or not.
Also I feel a lot of average league bowlers don't realise that there are mostly different and harder Oil patterns laid out than the normal house pattern. It would be nice to see more centres lay out some patterns for leagues.

 

[Geoff300]

Lets all go back to trying to improve the leagues we have and get stuff for the league bowlers. Forget the fact that league numbers are going down as there just aren't enough people bowling socially then taking up a league afterwards.

Like I said, you lot are too narrow minded to see the real picture and until you open your eyes the sport will remain dead in the water.

Get people interested first then worry about issues with league etc. Without the people walking in the door you wont have a league to start with.

I actually did read your post

Maybe you wrote it in a manner that did not explain it well, Which I
understand as it is difficult to get it written down sometimes

You may think some people are narrow minded , and thats fine, I am not
of that i can asure you

There are plenty of people walking thru the door to bowl socially
The numbers are up on social play
It is the conversion of social bowlers to league bowlers
that is the problem

That falls on the shoulders of 3 groups of people

1. Bowling Centres who used to spend time converting
but very , very rearly do so now because they have
a different focus today

2. Current League bowlers who used to bring new people
or see people bowling social and approach them to play in a league

3. Local Associations and the TBA as they used to have centre reps
who did this kind of work as well

You mention you are sick of hearing "join the TBA"
Well maybe you are but without an association this Game will
never get back to a Sport with strong representation
We WILL end up like Squash, Stuffed !!!

The TBA have a lot of work to do to get members back in the fold
including doing stuff for the average bowler, not just the elite

What the average bowler coould do is let the TBA know
what is it they would like the TBA to do for them

Cheers
Geoff

 

[nev25]

The TBA have a lot of work to do to get members back in the fold
including doing stuff for the average bowler, not just the elite

I'm curious as to what this is after the trouble you know we in Vic are having getting a simple training DVD sent out

What the average bowler could do is let the TBA know
what is it they would like the TBA to do for them

Coaches we need coaches

Had a chat a week ago to our boards new chairman who said its there aim to get at least one coach in every centre
I'm not holding my breath

I am curious as to why the TBA doesn't have a promotions or media liaisons person on staff???

 

[phantomD]

The incentive of being able to practice free might encourage a few people to join a league though so I would say offer it to new bowlers only.

Free practice for new bowlers will get us new bowlers. It will also cause a massive revolt among the existing bowlers and create a lot of problems where machines need to be maintained due to the extra games but no money is being earned.

I don't see this as an option.

 

[lordofthepins]

Free bowling won't happen. At AMF every game gets reigstered with the games number going through to Sydney head office supposedly, very tight.

In an earlier post, someone mentioned about staff. How do they effect or influence a social bowlers experience? what efforts are made by staff to go down to lanes to chat? What coaching iniatitives have they put into place? Are they enthusiastic and positive in regards to bowling? Do they REALLY care about the sport and longjevity of it?

Staff are the first face the average social bowler/family see when they walk in the door.. Talk about making a poor first impression...

I can't stand apathetic people!! Even more so when they work in my centre.. They seem to employ the driftwood constantly.. These guys are ALL cut from the same cloth.

I'll stop the 8itching now, early Sunday morning... It does seem pretty consistant that most of us think the social bowlers need to be converted to league bowlers, and that promotion and perception as bowling as a "sport" is a must. Good staff are probably a most under valued commodity.

 

[Troyza]

I can understand what Cell is saying, hasn;t every league bowler to date experienced bowling before hand? It's not like all of a sudden someone who has never bowled before goes into a center & says "I wanna join league, please."

How do we attract social numbers? Probably lower the price of social games. but a lot of business in any market are scared to do that, nowadays.

 

[Geoff300]

I'm curious as to what this is after the trouble you know we in Vic are having getting a simple training DVD sent out




Coaches we need coaches

Had a chat a week ago to our boards new chairman who said its there aim to get at least one coach in every centre
I'm not holding my breath

I am curious as to why the TBA doesn't have a promotions or media liaisons person on staff???

Nev

All good points

The ongoing issue you have had with a Level 1 course
is a VIC association problem, So i would be getting onto someone
there or complain directly to Kelly Warren and Chris Batson
Organising coaching courses is not always easy as people tell you
they want to do the course and then when announced they dont.
That is no excuse in your case
The first new Level 1 course was done in December
The DVD issue you have is something I have been involved in to
sort out for you, I'm a NSW TBA board member
Some of us care and want to help and I am happy to do so
when and where I can

TBA Nationally have released a program to have coaching courses
rolled out this year:
100 courses offered with a subsidy of $150 per person Level 1
100 courses offered to AMF staff with a subsidy of $150 per person level 1
100 courses offered to Independant centres staff subsidy $150 per person level 1

The Media person is a very valid point and one I have raised already
as has Chris Batson
Not sure where the national board sits with this idea

MY personal view is we won't get all we want need or deserve out
of our National body until certain people move on.
In order for that to take place we need people to step up to
the plate and challenge these people in their current role

We have the same problems on our NSW board, But we are
doing something about them now !

Please, I encourage posts like this, we need to know what
is wanted by the average bowler

Cheers
Geoff

 

[jockey]

Cell

It is not that posters to this forum are narrow minded rather that they can't read what is not there. Your post intitially did not convey what you probably intended it too.

Now we had people suggesting free practice games which isn't new and in most cases is not going to wash with proprietors but your suggestion of centres offering free practice games to only new league bowlers for six months or so is a good one. That not only encourages new bowlers to stick with it but is viable for the centre as they can justify the cost in a cost / benefits analysis for the proprietors. The centre could have a designated time for the new bowlers to come in and obtain the free practice benefits. To further consolidate the bowlers interest maybe they could provide an incentive like a new bowling ball (reactive not plastic) for the new bowler who improves their league average the most over a 12 month period (calendar year).

Now this is what I mean by everyone in this forum can contribute to an overall possible solution. We all have ideas but some ideas put forward by one person can be embelished into better ones by other posters. This is good for everyone and does not detract from the original poster in any way. Consequently some ideas that seemed ok when the person posted it can have its flaws outlined for all to see incuding that original poster who did not see the flaw(s). We all see and percieve things differently so lets use this to our advantage.

 

[Bigsy]

That is all so true

Imagine today Lovey kicking the **** of a ball return !!!! hahahaha !!!
Or telling someone 4 lanes away to F@#$ Off

Now THAT I would love to go and watch.

Bring back the biff !!!