Tournament ideas

[RobbieB]

With many tournaments attracting fewer entries these days (at least the ones outside QLD) here is an idea that might at least help the centre put a few more games through, which can help support the event.

Experience only entries.

Let lower average bowlers play for the cost of the linage (plus maybe a nominal amount towards the main or a separate prizefund), with no claim on prizemoney.

For example, if the tourney has a 12 game qualifier, allow 180 or lower ave bowlers to play for say $70 or so. Similar to amateurs competing at golf, they have no claim on prize money.

Why? I think many league bowlers would happily pay this sort of amount to bowl simply for the experience, whereas they know that the full $200 or so is just an expensive donation. Since the tourney games tend to be discounted, this either offsets the cost to the host centre, or puts a little extra into the prize fund. The 'amateurs' (for want of a better word) could have a separate trophy/prize pool also.

Some of them will likely catch the tourney bug, and bowl more events, providing the elite bowlers actually treat them like human beings (usually not a problem) and they enjoy themselves. Everyone wins.

As a separate issue: For the rankings points, rank all tourneys off the same base. 10 point for competing, extra points for cashing only. Then add the following:
5 points for every top 10 player you beat;
2 points for every top 11-30 player you beat;
1 point for every top 31-60 player you beat.
TBA would have to automatically rank every bowler, but this would automatically scale every tournament according to to how hard it was to win it. Numbers might need jigging a bit, but you get the idea.

Thoughts?

 

[weggy]

sounds like a plan.

on a more general note for tournaments - increasing the number of junior events, while applying the same entry criteria as robbie mentioned, may improve the numbers at a grass-roots level for future years. if they catch the 'tourney bug' early in their bowling, it will increase the likelihood of their continuing into youth/adult events.

my 2 cents

 

[Bowling Balls Australia]

Abolish carry over pinfall after each stage & make the left as hard as the right.

 

[philby]

Abolish carry over pinfall after each stage & make the left as hard as the right.

Or make the right as easy as the left

 

[GoTheCell]

Or we could just outlaw left handed bowlers completely

 

[mannah]

Or learn to bowl left handed

 

[mannah]

Seriously though - a good idea. I have only bowled one big open tournament for "experience". A very expensive way to put up with bowling for 3 hours with a "better" bowler who constantly swore, abused equipment, berated the game, the ball, the lanes, etc everything was to blame except himself and did not speak to for for the entire bowling "experience". I have much better things to do with my time and money than endure that again. I will stick to lesser tournaments, save money and enjoy the experience.

However if someone starts something along the lines outlined in this suggestion maybe I would look at it. Gaining experience is a necessity to being a better bowler but it needs to be a positive experience or you will lose bowlers altogether. I know after my personal experience I thought about giving the game up altogether as I thought if this is what tournament bowling is then I did not want to be part of it.

 

[philby]

I have had an idea for a tournament for a while.

2 game qualify either in league or any other time as lanes are available.

3 to 4 week qualifying period with unlimited re bowls.

$20 for first attempt then $12 for each subsequent try.

Cut to top 64.

Bowl 1 game cost $10

Cut to 32

Bowl 1 game cost $10

Cut to 16

Bowl 1 game cost $10

cut to 8

Bowl 1 game cost $10

Cut to 4

Bowl 1 game cost $10

Cut to 2

Bowl 1 game cost $10

Total prize fund will be about $4000 based on 100 entry's 50 re bowls and a sponsor based on a $5 game rate

First place $2000 if a sponsor can be found and enough entry's are received.

Its just an idea at the moment and if i can find the time i will put a bit more work into it. What does everybody think. Its a bit different from the norm but i think it might work.

 

[Jasonguru]

great suggestions all round.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Why would you want to abolish carry over pinfall?

Why penalise someone for bowling exceptionally well in qualifying?

Why should someone who may be averaging 25 pins PER GAME less than the leader be allowed to commence the next phase of the tournament at the same score?

I have been on the receiving end of the benefits of dropped pinfall, and I have also been the victim of dropped pinfall. Sorry, but I have NEVER been a proponent of dropping pinfall and I see no real reason to do so now.

Just my 0.02c

 

[Fitzy]

Why would you want to abolish carry over pinfall?

Because ppl like me can then have a chance at getting through to a higher round! - Before I get flamed ... Jokes people!!

I agree with you Brenton. I can not see why a penalty should be placed on a a bowler/bowlers who have dominated at the qualification level.

Is there an angle I am missing?? Any one have reasons why dropping carry over is a good idea?

Just my 0.02c

Brenton, I know the economy is bad at the moment (without saying the dreaded 'R' word), but 0.02 of a cent?? Come on mate, surely you could spare at least 2 full cents. Either way I am sure it will be rounded up to 5c anyways.

 

[RobbieB]

I think it is reasonable to drop pinfall when qualifying is held in single rounds at different times (or even different days). Even with the best intentions of the lane person, conditions can vary widely between squads - K&K a few (3?) years ago is a good example, where I was the only person to (barely) make the cut from either of the Friday squads.

In cases where the lane conditions do play the same for all squads, such as AB/BA qualifying or everyone qualifying at the same time, I have no problem with carrying pinfall through.

 

[bluey]

Robbie B, my wife said she would love to bowl in a tourny for experience but at $200+ and averaging just under 180, not likely. Your idea of "no claim on prize money" is very appealling to her and if publicised l'm sure to many others as well.
As far as dropping pin fall after qualifiing, l do not think that if you work your but off to average 30 pins or more a game higher than the guys that just scrape in, you shouldn't then be knocked back to "even".
Stepladder finals although great for the crowd and tv, should also not determine the winner. As it was put to me last night by someone with far more knowledge than myself, after 72 holes of golf the top guy is not told to go back to the 18th tee and play one hole with 3 or 4 other blokes for the championship. Maybe a seperate token prize fund for stepladder final, but the "winner" of the event would be the first past the post.

 

[AdrianS]

Bluey that was done with the Melbourne Cup a few yrs back, with diamonds up for grabs in the stepladder section. I think its an idea worth repeating

 

[Bowling Balls Australia]

Very few sports in the world have a "carry over" of anything when playing finals, the main exception I can think of is golf.......Does percentage count in AFL, NRL, soccer, basketball etc during finals? Do previous results in tennis, squash etc mean anything as one progresses through the rounds? With carry over pinfall we are rewarding people too much for previous performance.

If pinfall is so paramount maybe tournaments should be run wholly and solely over say 20 games of just that - pinfall. If moving the goalposts half way through the game (ie change of format from pinfall to matchplay), then the whole new format should be adopted and therefore pinfall become irrelevant once qualifiers have been determined.

Fitzy's 'joke' was right on the money. With pinfall carrying over, generally those up front go further head, whilst those in the middle & lower sections are by and large jockeying for position - obviously with some exceptions, but there are not enough games usually in stage 2 for much to change for many.

I have seen a bowler be so far ahead after stage 2 that he took it easy in stage 3, then lost virtually the unloseable. This may sound odd, but pinfall carrying over actually hurt him........he definitely would not have taken day 2 so lightheartedly if he did actually have to perform. I have seen results of the same bowler winning only 5 out of about 13 matchplay games and still winning the tournament because his pinfall lead was unassailable.......

BUT I do agree those who have qualified highest should receive a benefit. Seeding as per tennis, squash etc gives those ranked highest a guarantee of not playing other seeded players in the first and sometimes second rounds.

Depending on what format the tournament is based on, ie matchplay or elimination, will determine how the seeding is beneficial.

If matchplay, #1 qualifier would play #16, then #15, then #14 etc in order and finish with #2. #2 would start with #15 and finish with #1. 2 points for a win, 1 for a draw.One would think the better qualifiers would win the majority of their early matches and build a decent point score 'buffer' for when they get around to the better bowlers. It is matchplay, pinfall is irrelevant aside from separating a tie in the lower placegetters if need be. Winner is the person with most matchplay points, a best of 3 game "play off" separates those on equal points at the pointy end if required.

If elimination, #1 qualifier would play #16 with the winner playing the winner of #s 7/10, #2 would play #15 with the winner playing the winner of 8/9 & etc. The advantage is the higher you qualify, the easier (on paper) your route to the final will be. These matches would be best of 3, and again - pinfall is irrelevant - it is being successful over your opponent.

If the fields were big enough, and particularly in majors - the cut off could be 32 as against just 16.

Bowling does have a lot of little quirks, one of the many reasons I think why the sport is not taken very seriously by those not involved. Carry over pinfall is one of those little idiosyncrasies which make the game unique. Judging by the drop off rate in attendances of late, the two issues are obviously cost and the perception by many bowlers that it will purely be a pinfall shootout at the top (MANY bowlers have said exactly that to me) - why spend the money to have very little show of doing much more than getting their entry fee back?

We all know each of us has a different make-up, some are front running scoring machines when pinfall is the only issue, yet don't do so well when the pressure is increased to the point where they actually have to beat somebody. Then there are those people who are mentally stronger, may not be as flash or as big a shot as others, but can steel themselves to win. Dropping pinfall gives us the chance to see who does have the metal and who doesn't, far moreso than a strikeathon.

Max
NB> Brenton - the way you went on Sunday - if gone with points rather than pinfall - you may just have won the tournament (including stage 2 and who you would have played in matchplay). You would have won 13 of 15 games and that is worthy of a higher place than 5th.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Very few sports in the world have a "carry over" of anything when playing finals, the main exception I can think of is golf.......Does percentage count in AFL, NRL, soccer, basketball etc during finals? Do previous results in tennis, squash etc mean anything as one progresses through the rounds? With carry over pinfall we are rewarding people too much for previous performance.

If pinfall is so paramount maybe tournaments should be run wholly and solely over say 20 games of just that - pinfall. If moving the goalposts half way through the game (ie change of format from pinfall to matchplay), then the whole new format should be adopted and therefore pinfall become irrelevant once qualifiers have been determined.

Fitzy's 'joke' was right on the money. With pinfall carrying over, generally those up front go further head, whilst those in the middle & lower sections are by and large jockeying for position - obviously with some exceptions, but there are not enough games usually in stage 2 for much to change for many.

I have seen a bowler be so far ahead after stage 2 that he took it easy in stage 3, then lost virtually the unloseable. This may sound odd, but pinfall carrying over actually hurt him........he definitely would not have taken day 2 so lightheartedly if he did actually have to perform. I have seen results of the same bowler winning only 5 out of about 13 matchplay games and still winning the tournament because his pinfall lead was unassailable.......

BUT I do agree those who have qualified highest should receive a benefit. Seeding as per tennis, squash etc gives those ranked highest a guarantee of not playing other seeded players in the first and sometimes second rounds.

Depending on what format the tournament is based on, ie matchplay or elimination, will determine how the seeding is beneficial.

If matchplay, #1 qualifier would play #16, then #15, then #14 etc in order and finish with #2. #2 would start with #15 and finish with #1. 2 points for a win, 1 for a draw.One would think the better qualifiers would win the majority of their early matches and build a decent point score 'buffer' for when they get around to the better bowlers. It is matchplay, pinfall is irrelevant aside from separating a tie in the lower placegetters if need be. Winner is the person with most matchplay points, a best of 3 game "play off" separates those on equal points at the pointy end if required.

If elimination, #1 qualifier would play #16 with the winner playing the winner of #s 7/10, #2 would play #15 with the winner playing the winner of 8/9 & etc. The advantage is the higher you qualify, the easier (on paper) your route to the final will be. These matches would be best of 3, and again - pinfall is irrelevant - it is being successful over your opponent.

If the fields were big enough, and particularly in majors - the cut off could be 32 as against just 16.

Bowling does have a lot of little quirks, one of the many reasons I think why the sport is not taken very seriously by those not involved. Carry over pinfall is one of those little idiosyncrasies which make the game unique. Judging by the drop off rate in attendances of late, the two issues are obviously cost and the perception by many bowlers that it will purely be a pinfall shootout at the top (MANY bowlers have said exactly that to me) - why spend the money to have very little show of doing much more than getting their entry fee back?

We all know each of us has a different make-up, some are front running scoring machines when pinfall is the only issue, yet don't do so well when the pressure is increased to the point where they actually have to beat somebody. Then there are those people who are mentally stronger, may not be as flash or as big a shot as others, but can steel themselves to win. Dropping pinfall gives us the chance to see who does have the metal and who doesn't, far moreso than a strikeathon.

Max
NB> Brenton - the way you went on Sunday - if gone with points rather than pinfall - you may just have won the tournament (including stage 2 and who you would have played in matchplay). You would have won 13 of 15 games and that is worthy of a higher place than 5th.

Max, I finished where I did because I bowled very poorly over the course of the first day. Hence I finished where I deserved to finish. Now, had it b een 15 games of matchplay..... maybe a different story.

The SA Cup was played ove 2 days and 25 games (plus stepladder) for those who made the cuts. Those who shot the highest averages, finished in the highest positions. Surely (I know, stop calling you Shirley LOL) you couldn't ask for more than that.

 

[Fitzy]

BUT I do agree those who have qualified highest should receive a benefit. Seeding as per tennis, squash etc gives those ranked highest a guarantee of not playing other seeded players in the first and sometimes second rounds.

Interesting. I suppose every event I have been in has been based on pinfall and the carryover of pinfall where extra rounds are scheduled. So have never 'really' given thought to the subject.

I see your point Max, and the seeding approach seems 'fairer' actually. Maybe some TD's out there may think of attempting this kind of format in the future to see how it pans out.

Would be interesting indeed.

Cheers,

Rhyss.

 

[Bowling Balls Australia]

[/B]

Max, I finished where I did because I bowled very poorly over the course of the first day. Hence I finished where I deserved to finish. Now, had it b een 15 games of matchplay..... maybe a different story.

The SA Cup was played ove 2 days and 25 games (plus stepladder) for those who made the cuts. Those who shot the highest averages, finished in the highest positions. Surely (I know, stop calling you Shirley LOL) you couldn't ask for more than that.

I understand where you are coming from Brenton and with respect, that is exactly my point......

In nearly every other sport, once you qualify for 'finals', 'play-offs' or whatever else they are called - all bets are off, it starts from scratch again.

You may remember a certain SANFL team which went through a period in the late 80's to late 90's, it didn't matter where they finished as long as they made the finals. I think from memory they finished 1st only once or twice in the minor round in that time, yet won 9 out of 12 premierships. They beat the supposed better teams when it counted & under pressure. In the AFL (or any Aussie Rules comp.) it quite often happens the minor premier does not win the flag, their opponent performs better under pressure on the day.

This is going to sound like I'm kissing your bum, but it explains my thoughts...

You had a poor day by your standards on Saturday, yet through talent and gutsing it out, you were able to still qualify. Lesser bowlers would not have made the cut, let alone progressed during stage 2.

Similar to AFL teams, making the finals, being at one's best and peaking at the right time is what it is all about. Maybe without knowing it or intending to specifically - that is exactly what you did Sunday afternoon.

In matchplay on Sunday, you won 7 of 9 against the best qualified bowlers in the tournament, when it counted and under pressure. You were the best performed bowler in the "finals".....personally I think winning in that manner is a lot more meritorious than winning by pinfall (& some bonus points) and a very brief stepladder.

Briefly, on another couple of things..........I don't like stepladder at all. If there is a need for a final "play-off" (personally I do agree with that too), it should be the top 4 bowlers (by matchplay points & not accumulated pinfall & matchplay bonus points), seeded, ie 1 plays 4, and 2 plays 3 over best of three games, then the 2 winners play off, again best of three. I really believe a one game 'semi-final' or 'final' is not enough - particularly as that is the defining moment after some 25+ games. One unlucky split or one bad frame should not be the difference in determining the winner when so much is at stake.

Interested to hear more thoughts of some of the tournament bowlers too.

Max

 

[gwhiting]

There are some very good and interesting points raised.

I can only comment as a spectator as I haven't bowled in any tournaments.

I believe that carrying over pinfall and matchplay is a great way of deciding the winner. I don't like a positional round as after playing every other bowler why is there a need.

I don't like stepladder finals over one match. If there is a stepladder final I believe it should be the best of three games.

Another way of deciding a tournament is to bowl in two squads over two separate days and whoever knocks over the most pins wins. I think this is how most of the senior events are decided.

 

[xballs]

I like the idea of a Step Ladder final - as long as top qualifier has the right to re challenge.

I hate the idea 10 games stage 1 then have a stupid 6 games for the top 28 at some ridiculous time of the morning 0815 - who ever thought of that.??? I
think they should have cut to top 10 - 16. (preferably more then 12 - what I qualified on day 1) and start a reasonable hour 0930 - 1000.

Pinfall should carry over, I would not be happy averaging 226 one day only for it to be taken away from me the next day.
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I also would not mind some of the overseas formats -

top 20 - 30 bowler go thru to next round. top 6 or 8 get 1 round off.

elimination for other 18-22 bowlers ( best of 3 - 5 games)

then so on.
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