Are we preparing ourselves properly for International combat??

[emmtee83]

I would like everyone's feedback on the above question.

With the flurry of perfect games being thrown in the Australian Open, the winner of which is to be representing Australia in the AMF World Cup...are we really equipping ourselves with the knowledge that will make us successful overseas? For mine, AO being bowled on a Challenge Series pattern (not even a Sport Series) was a little surprising. With what appears to be very little tougher than a house shot being applied, we are contributing to our own detriment when bowlers from Australia head overseas with GOLD on our minds and can hardly handle the brutality that is served up over there. After speaking with an Australian rep from our Youth team, there is little wonder why Australia is so far behind the leaders in this sport.

All I am asking for here is everyone's honest feedback, nothing else.

Cheers and Thanks, happy Easter to all of you and your families.

 

[cruzer]

Mate it just looks like a carry fest to me...but of coarse I am not there.......but then again do we no what the pattern will be at the AMF World cup?....good luck to all and let the best bowler on the day prevail.

Cheers

P.K.

 

[AdrianS]

World cup is a carry contest anyway, hey lets go bowl it on berris lanes!!!

 

[emmtee83]

Yes mate, seems like a carry contest to me....After shooting a perfect game, Dion Alexander (1st pos.) threw a 470 block and fell out of the cut to 4th.

Hence this thread.

Even our no. 1 ranked Aussie bowler (Mr. Frilingos) who is by far and away the most accurate of us to date, could only manage 14th last year. What does that tell us?

 

[Bigsy]

Just got back from AO. Carry fest indeed.
In saying that.........Dion Alexander's 300 this morning was pretty accurate.
George even managed a 266 (front 9 then 6-8 split). Once again, very accurate bowling all competition.
The guys with big hook seemed to be a bit more inaccurate.

Bigsy...

P.S. - George should burn those white pants (Sunday specials)
They are almost see through and very distracting

 

[Phluff]

The challenger series patterns are being used in 5 ranked events while WTBA patterns will be used in 2 as suggested to the TBA by Kegal. The logic was that the jump from previous years tournament patterns straight to WTBA patterns would be so steep that it would cost bowlers in following years. Prehaps next year will see in increase in the number of more challenging conditions.

 

[Fitzy]

But you also have to remember WHO the top bowlers in the AO were!!

Look at the top 10! Who of them should not have been there?!?

Quite frankly, I believe, any one of them could hold there own at the WC. I watch George bowl fairly frequently so know what he is capable of. PT at last years Masters was something to watch. I do not know (/ have not seen) Dion play, though, by the sounds of it he was unlucky to not be going himself.
With that calibre I am not surprised it 'looked' like a carry contest. Remember the effort, time and tears these people have put in over the time, people.

All this, who shoulda B$ and lane conditioning B$ is just that!! B$!!
Geez, look at the PBA, these fellas make sport conditions look like carry contest. Put any of the top 3 on the PBA and (before long) we would see them treating the conditions the same way!

Congrats Paul, eat them up over there! No matter the conditions!

My $0.05


P.S. Forgive me, lack of sleep can make one angrier than normal!!

 

[robbo300]

Just one thing more, what was the reasoning for our national governing body to bring in these regs on lane patterns in accredited tournaments i thought it was to bring our sport up to speed with the rest of the competitive countries throughout the world and yes i understand as bowlers we can only bowl on whats dished up to us
just my $0.05
ps congrats to all the place getters

 

[GeorgeF]

History is a great tool in preparation. The World Cup over the last 5 years has been won by right handed power players who have had the ability to play inside with speed. Whilst we use particular tournaments to choose our representative, the reality is there is only a handful of bowlers in this country with the skill and ability to win the world cup.

Look at the years we have sent a right handed power players and check those stats against the years we sent lefties or right handed strokers, it's no comparision! Even Walter Ray Williams couldnt crack the top 3 last year. You need revs to win the World Cup.

Trots is a good friend and a great bowler but he knows first hand he is up against it with his rotation. Lefties have never done any good since Latvia 5yrs ago where they had 5 lefties in the top 8. Since then they have layed A-symmetrical patterns to ensure fairness which has rarely seen lefties crack the top 10 (the bastards )

Women, completly different.

If we want to win the World Cup, we need to seriously send Belmo every year. Good luck Trots, prove me wrong!

 

[da_cowman]

It's not the tournaments. It's getting the Australian teams, and potential Australian Team members together more often, not in a tournament environment, but in a 'camp' environment. Team members can learn more about each other's game and learn more about the game from each other. We have some serious talent, we just need to spend more time together.

Cow

 

[emmtee83]

All this, who shoulda B$ and lane conditioning B$ is just that!! B$!!
Geez, look at the PBA, these fellas make sport conditions look like carry contest.

Exactly the reason I started this thread.

In no way, shape or form can we compare ourselves to those within the ranks of the PBA....not only do they bowl on extremely demanding conditions EVERY WEEK, they have the skill level required to succeed. They CANNOT miss a target by any more than a board on the conditions they bowl on (one would know this if they watched the PBA telecasts on a regular basis), otherwise they are either through the nose or washing out, ....either way, they are in big trouble....and unless they find a shot instantly, they will have compromised their 200 game, thus seriously jeopardising their opportunity to make the next cut.

Bowlers here can afford to miss their target by anywhere up to (possibly) 3-4 boards and still make the pocket, even carry. Yes, the more elite of us bowlers are likely to win every time, I understand that....but for a tournament where the winner would be representing the country and 'assumingly' be bowling on the most demanding of conditions internationally, wouldn't we be better prepared bowling on a condition out of the Kegel 'SPORT' pattern library as an absolute minimum - a pattern that is a lot less forgiving and where bowlers are penalised EVERY time they make a mistake? For mine, this game should be about shot execution and repetition.....not carry contest.

Again, just my $0.02, feel free to disect and discuss....

 

[robbo300]

I for one agree Michael. Well put
Unfortunately the guy down the back has the last word most of the time. any one disagree hasn't been around long, for so many years now at jounior youth adult senior events this has been common

 

[Geoff300]

Exactly the reason I started this thread.

In no way, shape or form can we compare ourselves to those within the ranks of the PBA....not only do they bowl on extremely demanding conditions EVERY WEEK, they have the skill level required to succeed. They CANNOT miss a target by any more than a board on the conditions they bowl on (one would know this if they watched the PBA telecasts on a regular basis), otherwise they are either through the nose or washing out, ....either way, they are in big trouble....and unless they find a shot instantly, they will have compromised their 200 game, thus seriously jeopardising their opportunity to make the next cut.

Bowlers here can afford to miss their target by anywhere up to (possibly) 3-4 boards and still make the pocket, even carry. Yes, the more elite of us bowlers are likely to win every time, I understand that....but for a tournament where the winner would be representing the country and 'assumingly' be bowling on the most demanding of conditions internationally, wouldn't we be better prepared bowling on a condition out of the Kegel 'SPORT' pattern library as an absolute minimum - a pattern that is a lot less forgiving and where bowlers are penalised EVERY time they make a mistake? For mine, this game should be about shot execution and repetition.....not carry contest.

Again, just my $0.02, feel free to disect and discuss....

EXACTLY RIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been trying to highlight these and other facts to people
but they see it mainly as negative comments
It is reality
We have bugger all chance of winning overseas , except AMP,
because we do not bowl or practice on hard conditions

I'm sorry 9 x 300 games here in Aust in one tourn
is totally unrealistic

I am sure I will be shot down by some people again but it is the truth

 

[philby]

Interesting topic.

The truth is the bowlers who made the top 10 and for that matter the top 26 are all indeed very good players. Generally in a tournament of this caliber the cream comes to the top. Whether its a carry feast or not. Have a look at the names who didn't make the top 10. A few big names there. Was it because they couldn't carry or because maybe on the pattern layed down the players above them played better. Made better shots or matched up to the condition better.

Our top players are not silly. They know when they are on an easy shot and capitalize. They also know that to get to the level they are at they have to practice on harder patterns and most do. Dont criticize the event because of the high scores. Trotts is a champion. Dion and George and the others in the top ten are all great players. Yer the scores were high but i can tell you it was great to watch.

 

[Fitzy]

Dont criticize the event because of the high scores. Trotts is a champion. Dion and George and the others in the top ten are all great players. Yer the scores were high but i can tell you it was great to watch.

This sums up where I am coming from.

Exactly the reason I started this thread.

I understand the gist of where you are coming from and agree.

But I also believe this is the wrong way to go about it. Look at the title for starters! Who are 'WE' and what have 'WE' ever done for bowling and the top players??

Quite frankly they way this thread was started, in my opinion, seems rather disrespectful to the bowlers who competed in the AO.

The bowlers prepare themselves, have done from the beginning. Unless they have been privy to training and support from Australian coaches and staff (without expense), or you yourself have sponsored an event appropriately. 'We' have done bugger all. I am sure PT will accept your invitation to pay for all expenses related to the preparation for the world cup from now until the event. Or are 'WE' not prepared to offer??

No matter the condition, those who won, have done so mostly off their own bat and should be congratulated as such.
Not have a cloud over their head, from a few [enter your preferred term] that are basically saying that they aren't good enough because 'WE' haven't prepared them.

... We have bugger all chance of winning overseas , except AMP ...

Geoff's statement just reinforces [what I perceived to be] the attitude of this thread (hopefully I am wrong about this). AMP, yes has been around for a long time, has won it before and has the ability to win it again. But PT also has the ability to win it whether you think so or not. He bowled scores that were just as high in the nationals (and they were on difficult conditions). I see you are putting your hand up to sponsor the Australian teams and sponsor a few events too then Geoff??

I would not have an issue if the question was put in a better way and didn't relate to a specific event that can cast a shadow over specific bowlers, not just the winner.

Constructive criticism and suggestions are fine but we have enough 'bowlers' knocking this sport. It is getting old (almost as old as they are) and a lot of bowlers are growing tired of it.

An attitude shift is required before we can entice investment into this sport and investment is needed before we can truly prepare our own.

Let's commence phase one already people!

My $0.05.

 

[Phluff]

The way I see it, it's not so much the tournament conditions that are the issue. It doesn't matter if you average 190 or 290 to win an event, either way you've shown you are the best in the field, but once that is over there is alot of work to be done to prepare for international duties and I think that should be the focus of the original question. Run a tournament (as has been done in the past) on a house shot and while the cut may well be 240+, the top 5 will still be the same; Those who can maintain focus, poise and accuracy for the entire event.

The biggest issue is the amount of time national teams spend together training. It's alot harder in a country such as Australia with the population spread than it is in a country such as Korea, Malaysia etc, however there needs to be a way for bowlers who are going to represent their country at an international level to have access to top level coaches, drillers and lane conditions. Other countries do this and the international results speak for themselves. Working with people who have the knowledge to improve your game and on conditions that will test every aspect.

State and National training camps should involve representatives from Junior through to Senior bowlers. Not only are we then offering them the best chance to improve, but we can tap into bowlers experiences. What better preparation for World Youth than spending time on the lanes with bowlers such as George, Trotts, AMP etc; those who have been there and competed on the world stage. I'm sure not one of them would turn around and say "winning xyz tournament in Australia is enough", just as I'm sure none of them would turn around and say they have nothing left to learn.

Use the Senior team that went to Manila last year as an example. They conducted training camps on various lane conditions and held seminars with top level coaches, ball fitters and sports psychologists to help make sure they were prepared physically, mentally and that their equipment was matched properly. The result was a number of gold, silver and bronze medals.

I'm not taking away from the bowlers, I'm just suggesting that they should be given the best possible assistance in preparations.

 

[jimcross]

Phluff, you're right, of course. Now all we need is two lots of money. One lot to provide the facilities and personnel to provide this training and assistance, and the other lot to pay these top bowler representatives sufficient to have them not need employment ( now or later) as their current careers may not be able to be resumed, if they spend some years away from them.

No, I'm not having a go at what you said, really. It does make sense, when some of those competing against out reps, are, to some extent at least, in this position.

OK - We haven't got that money, and that position is not likely to change, so just support our bowlers, who manage to get themselves into these representative positions, knowing that they will do their best, and from time to time, despite the odds, that may be good enough.

People ( not you ) knocking them, even obliquely, by 'easy' lane condition type statements, can undermine the most important factor of all. The mental attitude. You need to'believe' you can win. A chorus of people saying you can't, is poison.

 

[Phluff]

There are only 3 ways of funding the sort of things needed to take Australian bowlers to the sort of level currently attained internationally:

1. Government Funding. Not really going to happen unless bowling gains a MUCH larger public image (ie. becomes an Olympic or Commonwealth games sport)

2. Private sector sponsorship. Again, the public image of bowling hurts the chances of this happening. Catch-22 is the money is required to set in place the facilities and tools to develop world beating bowlers will only come if we start winning on the world stage!

3. TBA membership increases and administration of the sport is streamlined to gain maximum revenue. Based on say a $40 registration fee for EVERY league bowler in the country, $15 to the National body $25 to state body. Of the State funds, $10 to representative funds $15 to local associations. From that $15 you cover awards and cheverons (the things people complained about losing). (just an idea)

But all this is irrelevant. The question of "are we preparing ourselves properly" can be answered thus: No.

 

[Fitzy]

Phluff, you're right, of course. Now all we need is two lots of money. One lot to provide the facilities and personnel to provide this training and assistance, and the other lot to pay these top bowler representatives sufficient to have them not need employment ( now or later) as their current careers may not be able to be resumed, if they spend some years away from them.

No, I'm not having a go at what you said, really. It does make sense, when some of those competing against out reps, are, to some extent at least, in this position.

OK - We haven't got that money, and that position is not likely to change, so just support our bowlers, who manage to get themselves into these representative positions, knowing that they will do their best, and from time to time, despite the odds, that may be good enough.

People ( not you ) knocking them, even obliquely, by 'easy' lane condition type statements, can undermine the most important factor of all. The mental attitude. You need to'believe' you can win. A chorus of people saying you can't, is poison.

Exactly!

I wish I were able to express myself as succinctly as yourself jimcross! I might actually have a friend!

 

[emmtee83]

But I also believe this is the wrong way to go about it. Look at the title for starters! Who are 'WE' and what have 'WE' ever done for bowling and the top players??

"We", in my opening comments, referred to Australia as a Tenpin Bowling nation. I wasn't referring to any 'singular' person as an individual.

Anybody that knows me in South Australia would not include me in the 'knockers' of the sport.....far from it. I give my time freely to commentate on the Tenpin Bowling Show to try and lift the profile of the sport. I hold Sport events and try to encourage people to challenge themselves by bowling on something other than a ditched-up league condition, and hope that people expand and learn something about their game.... whether it be technique, sparing, coping with a lot more (or less) oil, etc etc. All things that can't be learned at league level. I am trying to develop bowlers with skills that, when they come interstate and bowl on something different, they can be successful.

The whole point of my thread was that I'm not sure we (as a tenpin nation) are doing enough to equip ourselves with the skills to be successful overseas. The Youth (where our next stars are to come from) have competed but haven't stood out.....the pathway to success starts at home. If we keep offering up 4-5:1 patterns as national tournament patterns, how are we to get better?

I'm not sure of the answers....but I'm sure something does need to change.