Unacredited Coaching

[Geoff300]

Coaching with official coaches and Non official coaches is an interesting subject
There are so many ways to learn in our sport

Spending time on the lanes with people who know your game very well is one method
particularly in a 5 man teams league etc... You learn to look for what you team mate is or is not doing
and tell them...However the problem is not " You are doing this wrong" but " What do you tell them to fix it"
That varies greatly and can often be worse... Granted sometimes it works just fine.
That does not really address people wanting to learn new skills or improve..

Spending time with someone who is a non official coach... There are a few of them around who are very
talented and dont get accredited... Reasons for this are many but some don't want to do all the required
paperwork and study with the ASC etc , Others hate the TBA , etc
The problem with this method is those people, generally speaking , do not get up to date information as the game
and methods of learning change.

Spending time with an accredited coach.... Ultimately it is the best method however There are a limited number of those around.
Of those there are a limited number who are any good... Some charge money, some don't..Some are good with kids, some are
good with established bowlers, some good with beginners, some love to work on release coaching , some on approaches etc , etc

Not many of ALL the above options are good at all things listed herein but your best chance is with someone recognised and accredited

Before I get bashed over the head , As always there are exceptions to all listed above........

 

[Mistagear]

I wonder how many female bowlers have gone through the accredited coaching program yet are apparently needy of additional assistance at tournament level, to make them competitive internationally ? (see 8 pin thread)
It raises the question, is thinking inside the square necessarily better ? Maybe someone could ask Jason Belmonte his opinion.

My personal opinion, I'm sure the best coaches would be good without having to be rubber stamped and the mediocre coaches useless without it. Creating structured methods does as much to stifle innovation as it does to improve low standards.

 

[jimcross]

I wonder how many female bowlers have gone through the accredited coaching program yet are apparently needy of additional assistance at tournament level, to make them competitive internationally ? (see 8 pin thread)
It raises the question, is thinking inside the square necessarily better ? Maybe someone could ask Jason Belmonte his opinion.

My personal opinion, I'm sure the best coaches would be good without having to be rubber stamped and the mediocre coaches useless without it. Creating structured methods does as much to stifle innovation as it does to improve low standards.

You are being very, very naughty !

 

[nev25]

My personal opinion, I'm sure the best coaches would be good without having to be rubber stamped and the mediocre coaches useless without it. Creating structured methods does as much to stifle innovation as it does to improve low standards.

Coach being the operative word here
Who can call them self a coach??
If someone unaccredited walks onto the approach and tells a bowler to more 2 boards right is this coaching
And if the bowler trips over and injures themselves while doing something this person has instructed them to do who picks up the medical bill??
In other words who gets sued

I wonder how many female bowlers have gone through the accredited coaching program yet are apparently needy of additional assistance at tournament level, to make them competitive internationally ? (see 8 pin thread)
It raises the question, is thinking inside the square necessarily better ? Maybe someone could ask Jason Belmonte his opinion.
.

I fail to see your point as there are different levels of coaching and coaches
But my original post was regarding beginner bowlers throwing the sport in because of incorrect instruction

As for Jason Belmonte who is being coached by Diandra Asbaty (Silver Level USBC Coach) and Ron Hope (Gold Level USBC Coach)
Ironically Jason himself is a Silver Level USBC Coach


.

 

[Mistagear]

Coach being the operative word here
Who can call them self a coach??
If someone unaccredited walks onto the approach and tells a bowler to more 2 boards right is this coaching
And if the bowler trips over and injures themselves while doing something this person has instructed them to do who picks up the medical bill??
In other words who gets sued
.

I'm sorry, I thought your original post suggested the standard received must be superior if delivered by someone "qualified".
Sure there is no doubt on the insurance question, but as far as quality of advice, that does not necessarily apply that because you have passed the coaches course your advice will be superior to that of someone who has not bothered to sit the course.
A good gauge of quality of a particular course should be the percentage of people who fail the course. If almost all who apply are granted certification, then the qualification is more sham than substance.
I would think that if more than say 30% of applicants passed, then the minimum standard is far too low and that would detract from receiving good quality advice from the majority of registered coaches.
I'm not making comment on your personal abilities as a coach, merely saying in general that having a qualification might not mean a high standard and not having a qualification does not eliminate the possibility of being a quality coach.

I fail to see your point as there are different levels of coaching and coaches
But my original post was regarding beginner bowlers throwing the sport in because of incorrect instruction

As for Jason Belmonte who is being coached by Diandra Asbaty (Silver Level USBC Coach) and Ron Hope (Gold Level USBC Coach)
Ironically Jason himself is a Silver Level USBC Coach .

My comments were more a bigger picture view rather than specific to your instance, how innovation and advancements can be stifled by regimental programs placing restrictions on free thinking.

 

[jimcross]

Mistagear said;- My comments were more a bigger picture view rather than specific to your instance, how innovation and advancements can be stifled by regimental programs placing restrictions on free thinking.

Comment. On this site, generally speaking, you are preaching to the unconvertable.

I was an accredited coach once. To be clear, ATBC, not TBA, and the high level coach who conducted the course openly boasted ( with great pride ) that he had never had a person fail his course. It was obvious why - he spent the whole ( I think it was 3 days) teaching people how to pass. NOT how to teach, or even how to bowl themselves. It was disgusting.

Not suggesting it happens still, but it put me off 'acreditation' at the time.

 

[Geoff300]

I'm sorry, I thought your original post suggested the standard received must be superior if delivered by someone "qualified".
Sure there is no doubt on the insurance question, but as far as quality of advice, that does not necessarily apply that because you have passed the coaches course your advice will be superior to that of someone who has not bothered to sit the course.
A good gauge of quality of a particular course should be the percentage of people who fail the course. If almost all who apply are granted certification, then the qualification is more sham than substance.
I would think that if more than say 30% of applicants passed, then the minimum standard is far too low and that would detract from receiving good quality advice from the majority of registered coaches.
I'm not making comment on your personal abilities as a coach, merely saying in general that having a qualification might not mean a high standard and not having a qualification does not eliminate the possibility of being a quality coach.



My comments were more a bigger picture view rather than specific to your instance, how innovation and advancements can be stifled by regimental programs placing restrictions on free thinking.

I can tell you that not everyone who sits a coaching exam gets a pass... I know this because I have had to fail people
Not always pleasant but it is required

 

[Mistagear]

I can tell you that not everyone who sits a coaching exam gets a pass... I know this because I have had to fail people
Not always pleasant but it is required

Geoff,
Great to have your input, being an examiner. Can you please elaborate what % of people fail as a general rule ?

Would my assumption that many applicants are not really suitable material for certification be born out in the pass rate ?
I'm hoping the fail rate is far greater than say the occasional instance. If the numbers of fails is low, it would suggest the testing is more a process of ticking the boxes so almost everyone bothering to apply were able to pass, regardless of their true suitability and abilities as a coach.
Thanks in advance

 

[Wal B]

I've got nothing against coaches who get accreditaion to improve their skills. But I dont think if you've got a bit of paper (that says your a coach) neccesarily makes you any better than someone who has been involved in the sport and coaching for many years.

I also agree with Jim Cross's view about Coaching Classes. I attended the very first coaching clinic held in Sydney umpteen years ago and although I had respect for those running the sessions I came away thinking "are they kidding or what? How is this going to help me coach kids any better!"

And as for Jason Belmonte I was present when a highy respected coach tried (in vain thankfully) to change him to the more traditional style of bowing. I well remember his comment "this kid will never do any good unless we can change him." Yeh right!

 

[Wizard Bowling]

Very interesting reading these posts...

I am bringing Joe Slowinski (USBC Gold) to Oz Tenpin in Epping, Victoria in October to run both a bowlers/coaches course but also a pro-shop/coaches course.

Joe brings with him his tried, tested and proven results program.

Knowledge is invaluable and will provide more knowledgeable bowlers, coaches and pro-shop operators.

www.bowlingknowledge.info

 

[Geoff300]

Geoff,
Great to have your input, being an examiner. Can you please elaborate what % of people fail as a general rule ?

Would my assumption that many applicants are not really suitable material for certification be born out in the pass rate ?
I'm hoping the fail rate is far greater than say the occasional instance. If the numbers of fails is low, it would suggest the testing is more a process of ticking the boxes so almost everyone bothering to apply were able to pass, regardless of their true suitability and abilities as a coach.
Thanks in advance

Hmmm, where do I start !!!! lol

I did my Level 1 course in 1986 and finished my Level 2 in 1988, Wow I am feeling old now !!!!!

Level 1 coaching courses are more difficult to pass today, well they are when I run them.... It does require on lane ability, limited i will grant you that but I do insist on evaluation on the lanes as part of the pass process.
Failure rate is very low but I have failed people...... It is not unusual for people to fail the written exam

Level 2 coaching courses are quite diferent. They require a 13 module course set down by the government which must be completed prior to the Sport specific course being completed, Many fail at this stage !!!!! OR just don't bother as it takes about 6 months.
The Sport specific course is mostly on lanes stuff with teaching and learning techniques and all the required paperwork and compliance stuff
along with a written exam, several people fail at this stage---- They can do the exam again, a different one to the first....

I would agree that the Level 1 is quite basic.... The Level 2 is not

Having said all that there are some pretty good Level 1 coaches around and some pretty poor Level 2 coaches around
and there are some people around who are not accredited who are pretty smart and understand the sport well and
have ability as a coach.....

Personally I think the accredited coach is the way to go because it is backed by the Sport and the TBA and Government

Cheers
Geoff

 

[nev25]

I've got nothing against coaches who get accreditaion to improve their skills. !

Skills at what Coaching or bowling

You do a coaching coarse to learn to coach not bowl

But I dont think if you've got a bit of paper (that says your a coach) neccesarily makes you any better than someone who has been involved in the sport and coaching for many years.

!

Thats not what I'm saying
Point is from my Original post
Just because someone has been driving a car for many year doesn't make them a good driver nor give them the ability to teach better than someone who has be trained to teach driving


The bit of paper does tell you that the person should instruct the bowler the same skills as another person with the same piece of paper
I'm talking new bowlers as I said in the original post

Constancy and and a uniform coaching system is what I'm talking about here

Im so sick of seeing new bowlers join a league and on the first night get told how to release a ball or where to stand on the approach 3 different ways from 3 different people
Guess what they never return the following week or the only see the rest of the season out

The sooner TBA stop coaching during league and stop coaching by armchair experts and by those without an current accreditation the sooner this sport will attract new bowlers


Then there is the Issue of who pays when someone hurts them self??

Geoff,
Great to have your input, being an examiner. Can you please elaborate what % of people fail as a general rule ?

Would my assumption that many applicants are not really suitable material for certification be born out in the pass rate ?
I'm hoping the fail rate is far greater than say the occasional instance. If the numbers of fails is low, it would suggest the testing is more a process of ticking the boxes so almost everyone bothering to apply were able to pass, regardless of their true suitability and abilities as a coach.
Thanks in advance

That really is irrelevant its not a numbers game
I'm sure if the instructor thinks you have the ability to instruct the bowlers correctly you will pass

I can tell you that not everyone who sits a coaching exam gets a pass... I know this because I have had to fail people
Not always pleasant but it is required

Yeah there has been a few fail in Vic too

Incidentally I was told recently The TBA have put a hold on all coaching courses while an upgrade of materials and procedures is in the process and ALL Coaches will have to be reassessed to hold there accreditation

Very interesting reading these posts...

I am bringing Joe Slowinski (USBC Gold) to Oz Tenpin in Epping, Victoria in October to run both a bowlers/coaches course but also a pro-shop/coaches course.

Joe brings with him his tried, tested and proven results program.

Knowledge is invaluable and will provide more knowledgeable bowlers, coaches and pro-shop operators.

www.bowlingknowledge.info

Really looking forward to this
But the course wont give a TBA accreditation to coach
Will it?????

 

[emmtee83]

But the course wont give a TBA accreditation to coach
Will it?????

Given the fact that Joe is a USBC Gold coach, I would place a higher value on anything that he teaches above any level TBA Accredited coach in Australia. The reason is obvious.

 

[Drumo]

Just because someone has been driving a car for many year doesn't make them a good driver nor give them the ability to teach better than someone who has be trained to teach driving

That maybe so, but you can still sit a test for your licence without ever sitting in an instructors car and pass the test... It comes back to that which has already been said... A piece of paper to say you passed doesn't necessarily mean you're a better teacher than one without it...

The bit of paper does tell you that the person should instruct the bowler the same skills as another person with the same piece of paper
I'm talking new bowlers as I said in the original post

Why does it matter if it's new bowlers or seasoned bowlers for the intent of coaching?

Im so sick of seeing new bowlers join a league and on the first night get told how to release a ball or where to stand on the approach 3 different ways from 3 different people
Guess what they never return the following week or the only see the rest of the season out

The only way you'll ever know the true reason for them leaving is to ask them... (Hard as that would be if they don't come back) Unfortunately, bowling isn't everybodies cup of tea. Those that join and leave could be intimidated by bowling against higher averaged bowlers and not understanding how handicap system work. It could be because the team they bowled against might have been arrogant and not welcoming to the "new team" or they plain and simply might not like bowling in a league...

The sooner TBA stop coaching during league and stop coaching by armchair experts and by those without an current accreditation the sooner this sport will attract new bowlers

How is that going to attract more bowlers? Also, who coaches during league? Would you consider offering advice on ball selection or where you stand on the approach as coaching? I don't. I might not have the skills to see what someone is doing wrong technically but surely people who understand the game can look at a ball reaction and know that a change is needed.

 

[CHIN]

Im so sick of seeing new bowlers join a league and on the first night get told how to release a ball or where to stand on the approach 3 different ways from 3 different people
Guess what they never return the following week or the only see the rest of the season out.

The sooner TBA stop coaching during league and stop coaching by armchair experts and by those without an current accreditation the sooner this sport will attract new bowlers

Maybe there leaving because people aren't interested in helping them

Then there is the Issue of who pays when someone hurts them self??

Here's a new concept. Maybe they take responsibility themselves. Why is it always someone elses responsibility when someone gets hurt.

 

[pistol]

Not sure if anyone else has had this problem.
I had been a Level 1 coach for approx. 6 years and last year, a 4 weeks before renewal, I contacted TBA for a clarification on a part of the renewal process.
6 weeks later I received an email answering my enquirey but also informing me that my accreditation had expired 2 weeks ago and I would have to resit the course.
Hence I decided that it was not worth the effort and I can still coach without the TBA blessing

 

[Phluff]

Coach being the operative word here
Who can call them self a coach??
If someone unaccredited walks onto the approach and tells a bowler to more 2 boards right is this coaching
And if the bowler trips over and injures themselves while doing something this person has instructed them to do who picks up the medical bill??
In other words who gets sued.

Scope of cover straight from the TBA membership policy:
"Whilst participating in sanctioned Tenpin Bowling Australia Ltd activities including all official events, playing, training and trialing, official social events and fundraising activities and travel to and from the above activities."

Coaching status doesn't really come into it. The only grey area is if a TBA member comes in for a couple of games out side of league, does that count as a sanctioned TBA activity? If it does, then it doesn't matter if it's Uncle Fred yelling out advice, you're still covered by your membership insurance. If sanctioned TBA activity means only league, accredited tournaments or state association events, then you aren't covered even if it's the national coach standing behind you for that practice game.

 

[nev25]

Given the fact that Joe is a USBC Gold coach, I would place a higher value on anything that he teaches above any level TBA Accredited coach in Australia. The reason is obvious.

Absolutely

That maybe so, but you can still sit a test for your licence without ever sitting in an instructors car and pass the test... It comes back to that which has already been said... A piece of paper to say you passed doesn't necessarily mean you're a better teacher than one without it...

No but it does say you have been trained to teach the same methods as the next person with the same piece of paper

Why does it matter if it's new bowlers or seasoned bowlers for the intent of coaching?

It doesn't really but Im talking about keeping new bowlers from leaving the sport

The only way you'll ever know the true reason for them leaving is to ask them... (Hard as that would be if they don't come back) Unfortunately, bowling isn't everybodies cup of tea. Those that join and leave could be intimidated by bowling against higher averaged bowlers and not understanding how handicap system work. It could be because the team they bowled against might have been arrogant and not welcoming to the "new team" or they plain and simply might not like bowling in a league...

Yep Exactly Smart A*** Arm chair experts Big noting them self's

How is that going to attract more bowlers?.

By a having uniform Coaching System
New Bowlers are taunt the same basic principals no matter who the get coached by

Also, who coaches during league? Would you consider offering advice on ball selection or where you stand on the approach as coaching? I don't. I might not have the skills to see what someone is doing wrong technically but surely people who understand the game can look at a ball reaction and know that a change is needed.

There are a few that do it here
No I wouldn't do it during league but a lot do here

Maybe I might move to Geelong it seems to good to be true

Maybe there leaving because people aren't interested in helping them

Not from what I have seen
Everyone will tell you what you are doing wrong here
Even parents who have never picked up a bowling ball

Here's a new concept. Maybe they take responsibility themselves. Why is it always someone elses responsibility when someone gets hurt.

Yeah Right
Try telling some parents that
Its Always someone else's fault

 

[porky]

I've got nothing against coaches who get accreditaion to improve their skills. But I dont think if you've got a bit of paper (that says your a coach) neccesarily makes you any better than someone who has been involved in the sport and coaching for many years.

I also agree with Jim Cross's view about Coaching Classes. I attended the very first coaching clinic held in Sydney umpteen years ago and although I had respect for those running the sessions I came away thinking "are they kidding or what? How is this going to help me coach kids any better!"

And as for Jason Belmonte I was present when a highy respected coach tried (in vain thankfully) to change him to the more traditional style of bowing. I well remember his comment "this kid will never do any good unless we can change him." Yeh right!

I don't visit these pages very often, one gets a little sick of the back biting on forums but I thought Wal's comment re Jason is so relevant to this topic I thought I would throw in a few little unknown facts .
That advice given to Jason at about 12 years of age had a huge impact on him, so much so that we almost lost him to the sport.
When he returned from that clinic he was very withdrawn, very quiet and cried himself to sleep at night. Jason was a very competent soccer player at school and seriously considered changing codes.
His Dad, Aldo was equally distressed at the time not knowing what to do to pull him out of the doldrums. Aldo said to me, "I don't know how to help him and he is talking about giving it away".

I said to Aldo, "What ever you decide, you must not change his style, he is unique and people just don't understand what he is doing, I have trouble understanding it myself but he does have to grow into
his own game". John Velo should be intersted because I was basing much of my advice on his Dad, "wrong foot Joe" (bowled against Joe at Rushcutter).
When Jase finally decided he was going to do "his own thing" I said you will have to learn the rule book backwards because there are people who will try and shut you down and above all else..."learn to pick up your
10 pin"...he was a hopeless spare shooter (he's always having a dig at me so now we're square).

Now...I refused to become an accredited coach back in the 80's, I saw it purely as a fund raising scheme by the ATBC at the time when they wanted about $400 for level1.
I started bowling in 1960 on 3 Brunswick experimental lanes in the Marrickville Holdings factory at Marrickville in Sydney prior to their OBC company building the Leichhardt and St Leonards bowls and the in '63
I worked 3 nights a week coaching at the Rushcutter lanes. When Aldo & Marisa opened the Orange Bowl in '83 I coached almost every new bowler in the centre.
The reason I'm saying this is because I believe it is experience and not a piece of paper that makes a good coach, I think 'Mistagear' made the point earlier.
Having said that....things have really changed since my era, and I would have no hestitation in saying that if anyone wants to go down the coaching path you have little choice other than to become accredited.

I still believe everyone is an individual and even if I was accredited, if I saw someone bowling off the wrong foot I would not jump in and make changes without silently watching and evaluating that persons make up.
I've taught a lot of Down Syndrome bowlers over the years and many of them bowl off the wrong foot, but hell !..don't they enjoy themselves.
I was following Jase in Germany this last week and was reminded of just how much things have changed when I noticed Zamazaran Zulkifli bowled an even 1300 for the first 6 and qualified 82nd..enough said !

Whilst I don't bowl anymore, I thoroughly enjoy the memories for which I thank you all ...Porks !

 

[Scotty R]

The big problem as pointed out in Porky's post is the difference betwwn coaches that have an eye for talent and coaches that don't. Maybe there should be a ruling that states those wanting to coach to have a certain amount of bowling experience (I don't neccesarily mean as a bowler) to be eligible as I have seen coaches with very little experience instructing bowlers trying to improve them when there is alot that they themselves do not even understand about technique and the game itself. As highlighted in Porky's post if these coaches with limited knowledge approach unique talents like Belmo it could cost us potential future stars of the game. I believe there needs to be a line for experience to qualify for an accreditation as this will create better coaches especially for the bowlers who have learnt the basic fundamentals and want to develop further to comete at a higher level and of course coaches that will be able to distinguish between uniqueness and an actual problem with what a bowler is doing