QUESTION FOR THE 180-190 average bowler
- Thread starter tonx
- Start date
gjelectrics1
New Member
Ditch conditions give bowlers a false impression whilst sport conditions sort the men from the boys
jason_doust
The Bowling Geek
"Ditch or Sport?" It looks like you're deliberately trying to inflame the issue by taking it to it's absurd extremes.
A simplistic referendum fails to consider the issues.
The category I want to see is "Edge to edge oil in the front half of the lane." Flat, crown or even reverse block, I don't care. As long as it's fair for left and right handers (can be hard) and I can bowl, not chuck, the ball. The closest choice is "I don't care", which isn't true, as I really do care.
I want neither ditch nor sport. I want fair.
switchblade81
Peace 'n' Chicken Grease
i enjoy a challenge so anything but a ditch
tonx
New Member
Jason, its certainly not trying to inflame the issue at all, its basically hearing it from the 180-190 average bowler. These bowlers are often overlooked when changes are made.
Top bowlers often assume that the right thing is what they want is what the rest of the public wants, and I want to hear it from the bowlers we would love to see more participating in national tournaments The sole reason is that there are more below 200 average bowlers than aboves....
To a 180 average bowler, the 3-1 ratio is just about as tough as a 2-1 anyways, because the norm that they come to know with the free bounce at 10 is taken away.
The reason I didn't place a 'fair' option is because unfortunately people (including myself) are undecided on what 'fair' entitles.
I'm surprised (yet pleased somewhat) at the results so far from the poll with the ratio of the first couple of options given that those lower average bowlers DO prefer a tougher shot than a wall, and would love to hear why they have voted as they have currently!
Keep those votes comming guys.
Top bowlers often assume that the right thing is what they want is what the rest of the public wants, and I want to hear it from the bowlers we would love to see more participating in national tournaments The sole reason is that there are more below 200 average bowlers than aboves....
To a 180 average bowler, the 3-1 ratio is just about as tough as a 2-1 anyways, because the norm that they come to know with the free bounce at 10 is taken away.
The reason I didn't place a 'fair' option is because unfortunately people (including myself) are undecided on what 'fair' entitles.
I'm surprised (yet pleased somewhat) at the results so far from the poll with the ratio of the first couple of options given that those lower average bowlers DO prefer a tougher shot than a wall, and would love to hear why they have voted as they have currently!
Keep those votes comming guys.
ChrisG
New Member
For me, it's about the challenge of trying to master the pattern. It also makes you think a bit more about where to bowl and what speed, hence why I enjoy bowling the Sports Series here in Queensland. It has made me a better bowler in the sense that, now, I will move to a different line sooner rather than later if the old line isn't working.
But, for me, it is mainly the challenge.
Chris G.
But, for me, it is mainly the challenge.
Chris G.
Bowling Balls Australia
Sponsor
Unfortunately many of the lesser average bowlers don't get enough opportunity on tougher patterns, then those who do compete in tournaments are often caught short.
It has been particularly noticeable the last 2 Nationals.
It has been particularly noticeable the last 2 Nationals.
jason_doust
The Bowling Geek
Fair enough Tonx. My apologies for suspecting something that wasn't there.
I have always been a fan of lanes that provided a shot, not necessarily a tough shot. I like 'em tough, I like 'em easy, just not too far in either direction. It's like politics, somewhere in the middle keeps the peace. Some of our tournament shots have gone too far in the tough direction, while many of our league shots have gone too far in the easy direction. Ironically, the reason the flatter shots play so tough is that when a synthetic house has been so blocked for so long, the surface gets glazed beyond 10 board as if it were the backend. When you put a fair looking pattern on it, instant reverse block!I too have sympathy for the league bowler who finds themselves on one of these truly tough patterns for the first time. Especially if they're bumper bowling every Tuesday night as practice.
The balance seems to me to be around the shot at Brunswick Cup for a league shot, which played as if crowned around 8-10, with a drop-off zone outside 5 in the front. Then a little flatter for a tournament shot. I think I need to write this up offline and get back with a proposal for folks to consider.
Strop, good point, but how about you make reactives another thread when this one cools down? Let's ask all the tough questions!
Easy Tiger
Active Member
Perhaps people are voting that way because they keep hearing about it all the time. "Mr 210 average says its good for the sport, well it must be". The majority of 180 bowlers won't bowl national events, and from that perspective, how many of them actually know what a "tough" condition is? Let alone what things like "3:1" actually mean..
I totally agree that all patterns should have oil edge board to edge board. I also think there should be a cutoff of maybe 5:1 for league patterns - this should be easily attainable with any machine on the market.
As for national tournament patterns - I think many of the patterns have got ridiculous, not because of the actual patterns being laid necessarily, but because the patterns aren't suited to the houses on which they are being laid! Which is why, in a country of amateur bowling, the "national tournament pattern pool" should be scrapped.
All these ideas for changing bowling are nice in theory, but why can't we just get back to just bowling and leaving it at that? If you reallllllly want to change something about the sport, the best thing TBA could do would be to introduce oil pattern regulations at centre/league level and have oil edge board to edge board as a standard regulation. As it says in the book The 7 Habits of Highly Successful People - "FIRST THINGS FIRST"!
You are spot on again Max (damn it!!!).
Re last two nationals. I bowled in the ATBSO tournaments which preceded both nationals. At Illawarra, the TBA Kegel wasn't working properly and the conditions were nothing like they were supposed to be according to the pattern displayed. And so variable from lane to lane that few lane pairs were the same.
At Moonah, the TBA Kegel again wasn't working properly. The right side was just a flood of oil while the left at least had a bit of a back end.
The Kegel was apparently "fixed" after the ATBSO people went home in general disgust. (Something needs to be done about using the TBA Kegel more regularly and to transport it with more care.)
So Tonx mate, it's not so much a matter of a condition being tough or a ditch - to me it's a matter of consistency and fairness of conditions. As a 190 - 200 bowler in league, it is very demoralising to spend a small fortune to go to the Nationals and be faced with not a sports or house condition but one which really isn't anything. A 3:1 pattern should have the 3 ratio around the centre of the lane, not across the 10 to 20 board with 2 on the right edge board.
So I had to vote "easy" in your poll, sorry.
(PS: Well bowled at the weekend Tonx)
Denver Sporting
Member
FEral,
I think you will find that the TBA does not in fact own a Kegel machine. The machine used at Illawarra was in fact Illawarras machine and while I dont know the origin of the machine used in Hobart, I do not believe, as previously stated, that TBA "owns" a Kegel. The machine would have belonged to AMF and was probably shipped from the mainland.
However, I am prepared to eat humble pie if I am wrong.
I think you will find that the TBA does not in fact own a Kegel machine. The machine used at Illawarra was in fact Illawarras machine and while I dont know the origin of the machine used in Hobart, I do not believe, as previously stated, that TBA "owns" a Kegel. The machine would have belonged to AMF and was probably shipped from the mainland.
However, I am prepared to eat humble pie if I am wrong.
Fair enough, you could be right but either way it doesn't work properly and needs more use. I'd rather they used an old wick machine as it gives the true beneficial value of Kegel technology a "bad" perception.
Cheers
Easy Tiger
Active Member
It is/was AMF's machine, this is true. However the principle is the same whether TBA's or not. A) Flying it around the country and then transporting it by road by people who aren't specialist lane technicians can't be a good thing for a piece of highly technical equipment worth XX,XXX amount of dollars, B) Having different technicians operating it in different centres, rather than one central tech team, probably isn't ideal, C) Having personally worked on that machine in my time, having it arrive with the short lead time that usually occurs before the national events.. they generally just don't don't allow enough time for the machine to be run in the host centre and set up the patterns properly to cater for the centre's lane and environment characteristics, and have those patterns tested. I'm aware that TBA consults with Kegel when choosing patterns, and yes Kegel know their stuff in regard to lane conditions, but personal observation says that this system just doesn't work, so scrap it!
I would have to agree with Dousty, I don't think anyone really wants a ditch or a sports shot but something playable and fair (by no means easy to achieve). I tend to think its better to err on the side of slightly higher scoring because you don't want too many people walking out embarrassed and dejected after giving away their hard earned.
Not to mention how boring it is for any crowd there may be to watch finals with 170 v 160 sort of thing (not many people have an appreciation of board splitting anymore).
Perhaps a national pattern pool is a good idea with the patterns being available to the local centre for a few weeks prior? If locals have an opportunity to practice for a couple of weeks on the upcoming pattern maybe they will feel more confident about having a go? It may be an opportunity for centres to get some lineage in the dead times by offering practice sessions around the area.
Most sports have home ground advantage why not ours?
The cream is nearly always going to rise to the top due to the hard work they have put in and the experience gained. But it is the locals who generally make or break a tournament not the interstaters.
Just my thoughts.
Not to mention how boring it is for any crowd there may be to watch finals with 170 v 160 sort of thing (not many people have an appreciation of board splitting anymore).
Perhaps a national pattern pool is a good idea with the patterns being available to the local centre for a few weeks prior? If locals have an opportunity to practice for a couple of weeks on the upcoming pattern maybe they will feel more confident about having a go? It may be an opportunity for centres to get some lineage in the dead times by offering practice sessions around the area.
Most sports have home ground advantage why not ours?
The cream is nearly always going to rise to the top due to the hard work they have put in and the experience gained. But it is the locals who generally make or break a tournament not the interstaters.
Just my thoughts.
GlenB
New Member
I want these sport type conditions in league. I am not at a national tournament level as yet...hell, may never get there, but want to be on a condition that challenges me and makes me think about shot placement and when to make adjustments.
Conditions where if you miss left (I'm a righty) and it slides in oil to still make pocket, or miss right and the dry lets it come back up, are fine to get your average up. But it does little to teach me to adjust for conditions.
I do a bit of reading on the subject of lane conditions and how to play different conditions, but if you don't get them in league it is hard to put that theory to practise. I would like to see a league that caters for the 180+ average and lays down a sport type condition that makes shot placement more of a factor.
Conditions where if you miss left (I'm a righty) and it slides in oil to still make pocket, or miss right and the dry lets it come back up, are fine to get your average up. But it does little to teach me to adjust for conditions.
I do a bit of reading on the subject of lane conditions and how to play different conditions, but if you don't get them in league it is hard to put that theory to practise. I would like to see a league that caters for the 180+ average and lays down a sport type condition that makes shot placement more of a factor.
Cam S
BEEEEEEEEEAVER
I agree i would love to bowl in a sports league, however i think they would struggle to get up because too many average bowlers are now conditioned to think they can bowl around the 180 - 195 mark and wont bowl on hard shots week in week out.
~Mrs STORM~
Revless Wonder...
Correct.
Embarrassingly enough, the Kegel used at Nationals up here is ours.
There were (and still are) many complications with the machine. That year, I dont think they really fixed it properly until just before DeVeer, maybe even Rachuig. It broke down when they were oiling for the Welcome Tournament and there was a massive delay that night with that event.
Tiger
Active Member
You should've seen 'em in league for the couple of weeks before ATBSO Reg :lol:
I played on a condition which Norm Green deliberately setup on the occasional Sunday night back in the mid 90's when the place was empty, where he would lay a flat-pattern, double, might have even been triple-oiled right to the pin deck, always on the straightest pair in the house (1 & 2).
This was heavy stuff, he used a rubber Dynamite, and I used from memory a Magnum 10.
I think the best score was about 190 in all those games on it, man they were tough.
These conditions from the Kegel that were set before ATBSO played pretty close to Norm's condition.
When I saw a 175 average bowler playing a 166 average bowler and winning a league game 92 to 86, it signifies that it's perhaps a little bit too tough on those once-a-weeker's.
I resorted to bowling 2-fingers and no thumb to shoot 220 on it :lol:
Personally I don't mind a ditch now and then, but generally prefer an in-between condition, not rediculously hard so it becomes a slog fest, and not a 3-arrow hitting contest either, hard but fair.
If I was to be really selfish, I'd say set reverse blocks in every tournament, I reckon I'd go take out a fair few of them.
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