Buying Direct from the USA

[Frank Zippell]

This thread really has gone off on a tangent... It seems to have gone from buying balls from the states to the Pro shop operators justifying their pricing structures etc etc... Like a lot of things and it has been said before... you pay for what you get... But there is 2 parts to this in my mind...

1. Buying the ball...
2. Paying the ball driller to correctly layout and drill the ball...

1. Buying the ball... This is the crux of this thread. It is unfortunate for the Pro shop operators that they are seeing reduced sales due to the internet, but bowling isn't the only industry affected.

2. Paying the ball driller... I don't think anyone on here would complain about paying good money for this service (as has been stated before) Jason, I have no doubts that no one on this forum would question your ability as a ball driller. That is why I asked you if you ran drilling courses. This wasn't an attempt to fleece you in any way but to gain knowledge so I can look into providing a service to the bowlers in and around where I live.

Exactly right, Micky.

I, along with many others have not challenged the pro-shop operator right to charge whatever they believe is a fair market price for their ball drilling skills. Some pro shop operators want to take the ball drilling service a step further and include other factors, such as watching you bowl, they want to charge extra for their precision machines and knowledge. That's great. And, understandably they want to charge a little extra for this service. The high end, high average competitive bowler may gratefully accept this extra charge. Again, I haven't a problem with the concept.

However from my perspective, it's a waste of money! The only stipulation my wife and children placed on their ball of choice, was the colour. We are not paying someone to watch them bowl, we don't want lifters, thumb slugs and so long as the drilling is roughly centered over the pancake weight block. We are not particularly concerned about a precision fit. We were just social league bowlers only interested in the social aspect of league.

It is my belief that some of the pro-shop operators who are struggling financially may have lost touch with the average or below average bowler.

 

[Frank Zippell]

It seems to me that PSO's are trying to take out their frustrations on everyone but themselves.

My friend, that would be an understatement.

 

[ADP1805]

Frank it the average to below average league bowlers that are the bowlers of tomorrow and they deserve the same treatment and service in regard to fit so they can enjoy their newly chosen sport.......

Even an average league bowler has the right to a very good fit and the access to knowledge of this great game.......

 

[Toon]

I think what Frank is getting at is that the bowlers that are ordering from overseas to save money, despite buying many balls throughout their careers. At the end of the day they add up to a very small percentage of overall customers.

The social bowlers should add up to the majority of ball sales.

I know in my centre, there are only 3 or 4 bowlers that would order in/ or buy from overseas on a regular basis.

 

[Frank Zippell]

Frank it the average to below average league bowlers that are the bowlers of tomorrow and they deserve the same treatment and service in regard to fit so they can enjoy their newly chosen sport.......

Even an average league bowler has the right to a very good fit and the access to knowledge of this great game.......

Agreed. If the bowler wants the extra service, they should be able to access that service. And, they should pay for it.

I'm just relaying my experiences, observations and perceptions. I again reiterate, my family of five would not pay the extra for the extra service that Mr Doust wants to provide. If I had the choice of purchasing a ball from Mr doust with his extra charges or purchasing over seas, I would most certainly purchase overseas and have the ball drilled elsewhere. Only because the reality and perception is I'm being forced to pay for something that I don't want, being the extra service.

This is where Mr Doust loses out. You may think that my thoughts do not reflect the thoughts of a average bowler. Maybe not, I can only give suggestions based on my experiences, observations and perceptions.

 

[RobbieB]

Frank, I am surethat if you went to a reputable pro shop and explained that you want 5 plastic conventional balls drilled for your family, you would not be paying the same price for drilling as the person who wants a specific pin and top weight ball drilled for a specific reaction. You would still, however, end up with an excellent fit for your family members, thus avoiding the possibility of painful chafing, calluses and long term damage that a poor fit can cause. You can put your own value on that, as is your right. It is a shame that the average bowler is so ignorant of this aspect of the sport.

 

[ADP1805]

Personally Frank in most shops i know and run the service aspect is just that...Part of my job as a ball driller.

The pricing in my shops is at best on the bread line and as Breton said earlier most pro shops do their level best to keep their customers happy by offering over and above service...and a discount here and there where possible on services such as resurface etc.....

The disappointing thing to myself as a pro shop owner is this....
You can spend many many hours helping and correcting issues that your bowlers have only to see them dump you at the first sign of a ...so called better deal ....only to see them again in a few weeks with a new ball and a rather rough drilling and fit ....when for as little as $20 dollars in some cases they could have had the fit and service they deserve.

If that makes sense........

 

[wchester]

Both Jason and Frank have made their points.

Bowling EQUIPMENT can be purchased on the internet from an overseas source CHEAPER than from an Australian Pro Shop. However, accurate customer fitting along with laying out and drilling the ball, adding grips and thumb slugs, as well as any after sales services CANNOT be provided via the internet.

I'd be interested in knowing whether Jason Doust uses a standard mark-up percentage on all of his bowling ball sales or perhaps there is both a small markup percentage AND a drilling fee added in to each sales price.

luckily for me, I haven't had to pay for a bowling ball in over 20 years and have only paid for drillings. Over the years I've found that a great ball driller can be worth many times the cost of any ball!..

Buy it here or buy it overseas...the choice is yours. Any pro shop operator who wishes to remain in business should adjust their business model to fit in with todays market. So to both bowlers and PSO I stress the fact that internet sales are not going to go away...so find a way to use it to your advantage.

 

[androooo]

I'm still glad I don't run a proshop anymore...

And the people down here were, and still are, loyal to the local operators.

 

[Frank Zippell]

Frank, I am surethat if you went to a reputable pro shop and explained that you want 5 plastic conventional balls drilled for your family, you would not be paying the same price for drilling as the person who wants a specific pin and top weight ball drilled for a specific reaction.

Robbie you are better off telling Mr Doust this. He believes that marketing stratagies along the lines you have suggested are disgusting and vile. I did try and explain to him that this is not so, but he steadfastly refused to listen, perhaps you can succeed where I have failed?

You would still, however, end up with an excellent fit for your family members, thus avoiding the possibility of painful chafing, calluses and long term damage that a poor fit can cause. You can put your own value on that, as is your right. It is a shame that the average bowler is so ignorant of this aspect of the sport.

According to Mr Doust, he doesn't have tiered drilling prices. In his own words "It's one price, No BS"

As an average or below average league bowler, I'm certainly not ignorant of the fact. I'm just not that competitive that I would want to invest money into a precision drilling. Just like I play the occassional round of golf, doesn't mean I need the handcrafted purposely built golf clubs. I'm happy to play my round of golf using the run of the mill clubs. If I ever decided to buy my own golf clubs and the pro shop operator insisted I pay top dollar for custom made golf clubs, I would give him the same response that I have served up to Mr Doust.

 

[CT]

According to Mr Doust, he doesn't have tiered drilling prices. In his own words "It's one price, No BS"

You are taking that totally out of context Frank, it was in relation to the fact there are no hidden add ons, the price he gives you is what you pay to walk out the door.

Frank, i think you should go and enjoy your $20 ball drilling. However, when you wonder why you can't improve your game and get a sore hand everytime you bowl more than 3 games, don't come complaining.

You Frank, are a tight ass of the first order. I suppose you complain about the build quality of your korean built car too? After all, why buy a car where they pay designers more money and use superior materials when any cheap plastic will do the job fine.

 

[jason_doust]

Ah, Chris, you have a singular use of the English language! I'm guessing that dealing with the TWU has got you talking petty damned straight! I was writing this reply as yours came in, so I'll say it in my own words too.

You take me out of context on both counts there, Frank. "One price" refers to the ball inc drilling. No tricky extras at the cash register. And of course I include drilling. It's not only very awkward, but against the rules of the game to bowl without holes. Besides, my customers come to me for my fitting and drilling skills. Just so you know, I have standard pricing for various combinations of grip. So my rack rate comes down if somebody wants a conventional drilling in say, an entry level reactive, as it's easier work. Not so much a discount, as an appropriate revaluation of the package.

And of course I'll do discounts. How many do you want to buy..?

But now I see the level of knowledge you're coming from, your simplistic (not to be confused with simple) arguments make more sense. I apologise somewhat for being so harsh. You may not actually be a bad person, you just flat don't understand how bowling balls work, especially at the higher end. Imagine buying a TV off your mate with all the cables packaged in (instead of being hellishly marked up) as without them, you'd see no picture, which would kinda make the TV a little bit redundant! (Unless it's a cool as my old Loewe.) And then he has a couple of blokes deliver it to you, install and tune it. A complete service. But instead of the "Buy this, now you need this, and then there's this and one of these will make it so much better..." routine, you get one straight up price. That's what I do. I also sell basic coloured orbs to entry level players, as many of these people quickly migrate to higher level gear, especially when it feels good to use. They recommend me to their friends, so I can't be doing it all wrong.

I will not join the race to the bottom with the chop shops. Long term, everyone loses in a price war. It's a mugs game. And before someone comments that the customers win, note that I said long term. Because good operators are already considering their options.

 

[Easy Tiger]

It's not only very awkward, but against the rules of the game to bowl without holes.

This is not technically true. Awkward yes, illegal no, as long as you can find a ball within static weight requirements - no more than an ounce difference between any two halves of the ball.

Anyhow, continue guys.

 

[bluey]

Yes l think the words "tight ar$e" come to mind while reading through this thread. Sure you can get a ball OS a bit cheaper, but you sure as sh!t can't use the damn thing until you put some friggin holes in it! So of course the Pro Shop guys are pushing the "total price including drilling" line because it's correct. When was the last time you went into a bowling centre with a ball that had no holes in it, you can't have one without the other. When l started bowling l tried a few different drillers until l found a good one, (great actually) my loyalty to him is unwavered and has been rewarded in many ways since l met him around 20 yrs ago. l happily pay my money to him because the SERVICE l get is second to none, but then l've been a great customer as well. The relationship between bowler and driller lasts for as many years as you stay in the sport and as l said before, l will happily pay a little extra to make sure he is around for many years to come...but then maybe l'm just old fashioned.
In some ways l think this whole thread is BS, you shouldn't be asking about getting cheaper balls from OS without factoring in the drilling costs. A ball landed on your front door is not ready for use, it's an incomplete deal, you are not all comparing apples with apples and certainly aren't putting any value on the knowledge and skill that a Pro Shop operater brings to that deal. A skill and service that in my mind is worth paying for.

 

[Scuzz]

Yes l think the words "tight ar$e" come to mind while reading through this thread. QUOTE]

Narcissistic personality disorder came to my mind when reading responses where we read insistence to better every sentence of fellow thread participants.

 

[kmtproshop]

Hi Steve,

Like all good people in our society, I do my best to do the right thing by people. And doing the right thing takes time, dedication, development, equipment, education, knowledge, manual skills, an understanding of physical principles, excellent communication skills, an attitude of care and responsibility and a commitment to excellence. That all adds up. Just like a Mercedes isn't a Daewoo, a quality job isn't just three holes in a ball.

When people ignore the aspect of quality work, in order to save a few bucks, then imply that anyone who doesn't do what they do is getting ripped off, they cheapen themselves and in turn, our entire sport. They clearly demonstrate that they feel no reciprocity on their behalf is required to society as a whole. Psychologists have a term for them. They call them "cheaters". It's a type of pathology common in psychopathic behaviour. And our society is showing more and more of it. It's disgusting when they give this primate behaviour the euphemism "human nature", it's just misleading. Humans are capable of much more complex conceptual thinking than "cheap price" and many do and a lot of my customer base is made up of such enlightened individuals. It's just that some aren't capable, some are too lazy or far worse, don't care about the consequences to others. Dog does not eat Dog. Cannibalism is a primate behaviour.

We can go about making the world a better place. Or we can go about trying to (ch)eat each other. I'll choose to be, and try to be the former man. Sometimes it's harder, but it's worth it to be true to myself.

My quality of work is a reflection of my values.
My values are an integral part of me.
My integrity is not on special and never below cost.

Others can choose their own path.

Jason
As a PSO I agree with all you've said, but it doesn't solve the problem. If pro shops continue to do "business as usual", most of them will fail eventually. The business has changed and we need to find a way to change with it. I've seen nothing in this post that would suggest how to go about it---only complaints from both PSO's and customers. PSO's charge more for their service in order to make up for declining business, and customers retaliate by buying more balls from the internet to save money.

I don't have the solution yet, but I do know this---nothing ever stays the same, and if you don't change with the times, you'll get run over.

 

[John_Velo]

G'Day Bluey and anybody else that cares to read,

Being tight is not it.

People are more than happy to pay for the pro-shop service, I don't think that anybody is disputing that.

Anywhere from $70 to $100 or higher depending on what service is offered is Ok with me. I don't think the pro-shop owners should discount their service as that mis-leads the consumer more than the price of the balls. One person claiming $20 to toss three holes in a ball to a top notch service of $130 to drill/mill and fit. Kind of looks bad on paper when you don’t read the fine print of what you are getting for your money.

Will people continue to spend their money how they choose, YES, as long as they are comfortable with spending it their way. After all let’s not forget they went to work and offered a service to their employer to earn that money. So, they will spend it how they like and where.

Me personally, I also go online first for everything because it suit me personally, I am ok with that choice, the same way as I am Ok with people that don’t. In the last month I have saved at a quick calculation more than I earned for the month by choosing to buy online over direct face to face retail. Yes I chose to use Australian sites and companies. So now, I used that money saved to take my family on a holiday.

But, if a person or group of people can group buy and land the undrilled product for less than the pro-shop can land a ball from a local distributor, then there is bigger problem with the supply chain than the current online sales everybody is complaining about?

Something I have noticed is that I have asked this question three times in this thread and each time it has not been responded to. So I will take it as a yes answer, there is a problem.

 

[DIECAST NUT]

well, i think when comes to PS services, will all ways be there owners profit margin, will determine there quality of return to the bowler. as for buying balls, bags and etc there not really much a PS cant do about OS purchases, other then charge extra on drilling, which is understandable. as for the price for drilling most PS would have different price structure for each type off drilling required,

(i small test for Jason, Andrew and other PSO who are reading this thread, is to time in minutes, how long it takes for you to do a basic conventional, a mid ave bowler, high performance bowler. and say make it a dollar a minute, it would be interesting to see the difference, this will show our less learned bowlers, the difference in drilling services provided.

P.S, Jason you cant include your wonderful stories of yesteryear. lol)

as for bags and such alike, price of these is really going to be determine on how much PSO want to charge for them, i thnk PSO will have to do there research, look at the ave price getting that bag from O/S, and consider there profit margin.

for i would rather sell 10 bags at a $100 and make $20 a bag, and have 10 happy customers who get a good deal, then 1 bag at $200, and a semi happy customer but still will feel a little ripped off, and not return for repeat business.

so at the end of all this conversation, the price of a product, will always determent a sale. if mark up high you will have average sales low overall profit, low markup, consistent sales and continual profit

i know what i would do,

"it doesn't make money sitting on the shelf"

 

[Frank Zippell]

You are taking that totally out of context Frank, it was in relation to the fact there are no hidden add ons, the price he gives you is what you pay to walk out the door.

Had he mentioned that you don't have to pay for the extra gear that he included in his original sentence could have avoided a lot of confusion.

Frank, i think you should go and enjoy your $20 ball drilling. However, when you wonder why you can't improve your game and get a sore hand everytime you bowl more than 3 games, don't come complaining.

I wasn't interested in improving my game, perhaps that is a little hard for you guys to understand that play the game competitively.

You Frank, are a tight ass of the first order.

The word is "Frugal" If you resort to gutter phrases one may get the wrong impression and accuse you of having a low IQ.

I suppose you complain about the build quality of your korean built car too? After all, why buy a car where they pay designers more money and use superior materials when any cheap plastic will do the job fine.

My preference is for Japanese engineered vehicles, beautifully designed, credit given where credit is due, the Japanese design fantastic vehicles. The Korean engineered Hyundai is a really tough car for the lower end of the market and I would recommend it to anyone. The recently released Holden Spark is another Korean engineered vehicle which is proving very popular for it's low entry price into the new car market.

 

[Frank Zippell]

Ah, Chris, you have a singular use of the English language! I'm guessing that dealing with the TWU has got you talking petty damned straight! I was writing this reply as yours came in, so I'll say it in my own words too.

You take me out of context on both counts there, Frank. "One price" refers to the ball inc drilling. No tricky extras at the cash register. And of course I include drilling. It's not only very awkward, but against the rules of the game to bowl without holes. Besides, my customers come to me for my fitting and drilling skills. Just so you know, I have standard pricing for various combinations of grip. So my rack rate comes down if somebody wants a conventional drilling in say, an entry level reactive, as it's easier work. Not so much a discount, as an appropriate revaluation of the package.

And of course I'll do discounts. How many do you want to buy..?

But now I see the level of knowledge you're coming from, your simplistic (not to be confused with simple) arguments make more sense. I apologise somewhat for being so harsh. You may not actually be a bad person, you just flat don't understand how bowling balls work, especially at the higher end. Imagine buying a TV off your mate with all the cables packaged in (instead of being hellishly marked up) as without them, you'd see no picture, which would kinda make the TV a little bit redundant! (Unless it's a cool as my old Loewe.) And then he has a couple of blokes deliver it to you, install and tune it. A complete service. But instead of the "Buy this, now you need this, and then there's this and one of these will make it so much better..." routine, you get one straight up price. That's what I do. I also sell basic coloured orbs to entry level players, as many of these people quickly migrate to higher level gear, especially when it feels good to use. They recommend me to their friends, so I can't be doing it all wrong.

I will not join the race to the bottom with the chop shops. Long term, everyone loses in a price war. It's a mugs game. And before someone comments that the customers win, note that I said long term. Because good operators are already considering their options.

Had you mentioned some this earlier, I for one would not have been so confused. I certainly got the impression that you had no marketing strategy at all.