Serious Question. How does a BALL affect CARRY

[jimcross]

Does the structure of a ball produce more or less carry? What I mean is, if say, it was possible to drill four balls, because of their different construction, with four different layouts, so that delivered by someone with a good release, and constant speed, they followed the same line to the pocket, each preferably drilled to produce a mild movement on the lane, is their 'carry' potential the same, or different?
If different - why?

 

[amagill]

I'm no expert Jim, but I believe it has a lot to do with the cores. Some just hit harder than others. If you keep ringing 10 pins, particularly on some of these WTBA patterns, you can try changing your release to get a different roll, but a lot of the time, you will still ring a 10 pin. So a different ball is the answer. Others will probably be able to explain it better than I have though...

 

[RobbieB]

Carry is the product of correct entry angle and and good transitions onlane. Different covers/cores/layouts will result in the balls transitioning sooner/later/differently on the pattern, which changes the entry angle and roll at the pocket.

 

[RobbieB]

Sorry Jim, didn't actually answer what you asked - if the 4 balls follow the same line to the pocket with the same transitions in the same places onlane, the carry should be very similar. This is one case where the actual ball surface and statics might make minor differences to the carry %age, but not much.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Does the structure of a ball produce more or less carry? What I mean is, if say, it was possible to drill four balls, because of their different construction, with four different layouts, so that delivered by someone with a good release, and constant speed, they followed the same line to the pocket, each preferably drilled to produce a mild movement on the lane, is their 'carry' potential the same, or different?
If different - why?

Jim, it is extremely difficult to get 4 different balls (even with 4 differentlayouts to react the same way.

1. COVERSTOCK

The coverstock is the part of the ball that contacts the lane, the tyres of the car if you like. Therefore it is the single most significant aspect of a bowling balls reaction. Differences in the friction levels created by different strength coverstocks almost immediately answwers your question. However that alone is too simplistic.

2. CORES

if the coverstock is the tyres of the ball, then the core is the engine. Different core sizes, densities and shapes give a baseline idea as to how the core engages the coverstock when it encounters friction. You could theoretically create a strong enough cover and weak enough core to match a ball with a very weak cover and very strong core. However, given the restraints mandated by the governing bodies, this is impossible to create, especially on sports/WTBA oil patterns.

3. LAYOUTS

If the cover is the tyres and the core is the engine, then the layouts are the gearbox. These fine tune the manner in which the engine engages the tyres,whether later down the lane with a more sudden, angular move or earlier in the midlane with a less sudden, more even move towards the pocket.

In short, other than by making extreme hand position and/or ball speed adjustments, the above variables make getting 4 different types of bowling balls to react exactly the same and carry exactly the same extremely unlikely .

 

[amagill]

Great analogies Brenton!

 

[jimcross]

Thanks all. I somewhat expected that with everything else being the same ( theoretically, Brenton. I appreciate the difficulty / impossibility of doing it practically ), as Robbie says - probably no difference.

I rather expected, because it's logical, that if everything else was the same, then the ball itself contacting the pins and progressing through them, would have the same effect. I feel reasonably sure that some bowlers have had a different belief.

Thanks again.

 

[Hooligan]

Jim, you have a way to ask simple questions that result in brain pain!

Would a sanded ball, due to more surface friction, deflect less than a highly polished ball when it contacts the pins? Would that change carry? Is Robbie including that in his minor %age?

 

[Mistagear]

I have a ball question , apologies if this is wrong place to ask.

A ball with pin in, high roll track, PAP say 5" from GC
rotates through the oil with the pin (and mass dynamic bias) travelling on the inside of the hook potential (left side for a right hander or right side for a lefty).
now the question.
once the ball turns out of the oil and sets towards the pocket, where is the pin and weight block in relation to the roll of the ball ?
Does the weight block become lateral and close to the rotational axis ?

So does it become closer to the centre axis like a spinning ice skater when they place their arms close to their body, which increases the speed of the rotation ?

 

[CT]

A sanded ball actually has LESS surface friction on a dry backend then a smooth polished surface. Sanded surfaces grip better in oil due to the microscopic peaks on the surface being able to touch the lane surface earlier than a smooth surface. At the end of the day a vast majority of 'polishes' these days dont contain any waxes and really are just extremely fine grade cutting compounds. A ball sanded up to 4000 grit abralon is almost 'polished'.
As for the original question, I don't necessarily think that all balls hit the same from the same angle due to RG in the core. I ball with more mass towards the outside of the ball will always roll 'harder' through an obstacle than one with a higher mass nearer the centre. This 'loping' effect is what makes high RG balls progress a lot further down the lane as there is greater inertia for the rotational forces in the ball to fight against.
On a side note, Urethan and Plastic balls will never hit as well as reactive, due to the reactive balls ability to grip the pins when coming in contact with them. This in turn leads to the pins being rotated by the ball slightly, turning them sideways and leading to a much higher carry percentage. Its all about mixing the pins together rather than brute force trying to blow them out the back wall. A pin that travels sideways through the deck has 3-4 times the contact area an upright pin has in relation to the standing pins around it.

 

[CT]

I have a ball question , apologies if this is wrong place to ask.

A ball with pin in, high roll track, PAP say 5" from GC
rotates through the oil with the pin (and mass dynamic bias) travelling on the inside of the hook potential (left side for a right hander or right side for a lefty).
now the question.
once the ball turns out of the oil and sets towards the pocket, where is the pin and weight block in relation to the roll of the ball ?
Does the weight block become lateral and close to the rotational axis ?

So does it become closer to the centre axis like a spinning ice skater when they place their arms close to their body, which increases the speed of the rotation ?

It can do, however you must remember that from the moment you release the ball the core starts to transition, it doesnt only happen on the backend. You just don't see it in the front of the lane as the coverstock doesnt have enough grip on the lane surface for the ball to change direction.

As for the dynamics, a ball is always going to try and migrate to its prefer spin axis, which is the point at where the ball rolls the easiest and is usually at its most stable. Asymetric balls can be an exception to this rule. The pin on the ball will try and migrate to the stable point which will end up somewhere close to your PAP in most cases, where the core will be 'lateral' in most cases. When a ball stablises it is commonly referred to as 'roll out', though this term isn't quite accurate as it is possible for the ball to stop moving right to left (R/H) whilst not having the core completely stabalised. When a ball does this carry and strike percentage are usually both extremely high as the ball is rolling straight through the pins whilst also having a large dynamic force to hit the pins with.

 

[Mistagear]

CT,
Thanks for the reply,
I'm asking questions here to understand, not argue a point.

At release and through the oil the ball is spinning on the axis created by the release and the PAP can be seen facing towards the bowler, not towards the pocket. That is before the core has any influence over the spinning axis. ?
As the ball transitions into greater grip on the lane, the axis created by the release and the dynamic imbalance of the weight block alters the direction of travel (inertia) and the ball starts to arc/hook. This is when the flare part of the tack occurs as the ball changes roll characteristics. ?
So in my thinking, the PAP is no longer visible to the bowler and the point which was the PAP during the first part of the lane is no longer the PAP. a new PAP is created depending on the amount of flare.
Is the ideal to have the pin as close to the axis by time the ball is hitting the pocket ? because that would be the greatest force in the direction of the travel when hitting the pocket..
ie.. does a pin out, drilling have the pin closer to the axis at time of hitting pocket and theoretically have greater inertia ?
and does a pin in, have greater bias to the side at pocket (still trying to hook)

 

[jimcross]

CT, that makes sense --- unfortunately !!! My certainty reduced to doubt - Again!!

 

[RobbieB]

Chris is incorrect about how a ball rolls. It has been thoroughly demonstrated that the PAP of a ball travels along a constant rg path as the ball flares. The pin does NOT move towards the PAP. This is also the reason long pin-PAP layouts in asyms burn tilt & rotation so fast.
The attached pdfs should help.

 

[RobbieB]

I have a ball question , apologies if this is wrong place to ask.

A ball with pin in, high roll track, PAP say 5" from GC
rotates through the oil with the pin (and mass dynamic bias) travelling on the inside of the hook potential (left side for a right hander or right side for a lefty).
now the question.
once the ball turns out of the oil and sets towards the pocket, where is the pin and weight block in relation to the roll of the ball ?
Does the weight block become lateral and close to the rotational axis ?

So does it become closer to the centre axis like a spinning ice skater when they place their arms close to their body, which increases the speed of the rotation ?

No.

 

[RobbieB]

CT,
Thanks for the reply,
I'm asking questions here to understand, not argue a point.

At release and through the oil the ball is spinning on the axis created by the release and the PAP can be seen facing towards the bowler, not towards the pocket. That is before the core has any influence over the spinning axis. ?

No. The ball begins to flare at the moment of release. There is some minor wobbling of the axis as the ball encounters large changes in friction called nutation, these are the little curls in the PAP migration pathway in the Blueprint sims I attached. The core (more correctly, the total ball dynamics) influence the ball from release.

As the ball transitions into greater grip on the lane, the axis created by the release and the dynamic imbalance of the weight block alters the direction of travel (inertia) and the ball starts to arc/hook. This is when the flare part of the tack occurs as the ball changes roll characteristics. ?

No. The rotation imparted by the bowler is the only thing that appreciably changes the path of the ball to make it hook. The dynamic qualities of the ball, combined with the lane condition, determine where on the lane and how abruptly this will occur.

So in my thinking, the PAP is no longer visible to the bowler and the point which was the PAP during the first part of the lane is no longer the PAP. a new PAP is created depending on the amount of flare.
Is the ideal to have the pin as close to the axis by time the ball is hitting the pocket ? because that would be the greatest force in the direction of the travel when hitting the pocket..
ie.. does a pin out, drilling have the pin closer to the axis at time of hitting pocket and theoretically have greater inertia ?
and does a pin in, have greater bias to the side at pocket (still trying to hook)

See the other post, the axis does not migrate to the pin.

 

[CT]

Chris is incorrect about how a ball rolls. It has been thoroughly demonstrated that the PAP of a ball travels along a constant rg path as the ball flares. The pin does NOT move towards the PAP. This is also the reason long pin-PAP layouts in asyms burn tilt & rotation so fast.
The attached pdfs should help.

Thanks, after much reading I've learnt something else today. So the PAP goes into an ever widening 'orbit' (for lack of a better term) until the track flare ceases?? Which makes sense why the pin isn't moving towards the PAP but towards a stabilised point which is forever changing as long as the ball keeps flaring??

 

[RobbieB]

The PAP follows a constant rg path. The path shape depends on the (a)symmetry of the ball. Without friction it would do it forever. Accelerated objects eventually end up spinning on the PSA - the highest rg axis, that's how the DeTerminator works.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Chris is incorrect about how a ball rolls. It has been thoroughly demonstrated that the PAP of a ball travels along a constant rg path as the ball flares. The pin does NOT move towards the PAP. This is also the reason long pin-PAP layouts in asyms burn tilt & rotation so fast.
The attached pdfs should help.

However the pin stays on the PAP if the ball is laid out with the pin on the PAP to start with!

 

[RobbieB]

PAP-solutely!