How CAn We Help Country Cup

[Assassin_300]

HEy GUys

THis tournement has been running since 1981 and things have come and gone some things good some things bad,as is happning in the other thread their is motion to change aspects of its running,I feel leaving the format as it is 4 On,4 off 4 on etc is the way to go but with only the 2 oils for the day so each year those bowling first get the benefits of fresh oil thats the way we did it pre Bendigo.........that will save us time

I also find it hard to understand why bowlers complain on the way its run simply because they dont like it,Eg I dont like the way Melbounre Cup is run so I think they should change its format ,you know what your up against before you bowl its what makes Country Cup such a hard tournement and even more gratifying to win

Atmosphere was down for many reasons

Personel Bowling
Difficult Conditions
middle pair of lanes breaking down forcing 2 ends of the house to be used
lack of supporter base

I apologise if I offend anyone mine is only an opinion of many I just think if we change to much Country Cup will become another Tournament the same as every other

Cheerz
Kevin Wilkins

 

[Assassin_300]

I also remember after sale 2007 we had this thread



http://www.totalbowling.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=18689&highlight=country+cup

 

[wheelbarrow]

HEy GUys
THis tournement has been running since 1981 and things have come and gone some things good some things bad,as is happning in the other thread their is motion to change aspects of its running,I feel leaving the format as it is 4 On,4 off 4 on etc is the way to go but with only the 2 oils for the day so each year those bowling first get the benefits of fresh oil thats the way we did it pre Bendigo.........that will save us time
I also find it hard to understand why bowlers complain on the way its run simply because they dont like it,Eg I dont like the way Melbounre Cup is run so I think they should change its format ,you know what your up against before you bowl its what makes Country Cup such a hard tournement and even more gratifying to win
Atmosphere was down for many reasons
Personel Bowling
Difficult Conditions
middle pair of lanes breaking down forcing 2 ends of the house to be used
lack of supporter base
I apologise if I offend anyone mine is only an opinion of many I just think if we change to much Country Cup will become another Tournament the same as every other
Cheerz
Kevin Wilkins

Kev

As you pointed out, this same sort of thread was underway after the 2007 Country Cup. Don't you think that means that "quite a few" of the bowlers wish change.

It's fine to say that you know what you have, before you try out, but what is the alternative? Not play.

Nobody has said that the competition isn't great. It just needs some "tweaks" to make it more enjoyable.

Most people pay out quite a lot of $$$$$ and would like to make the sociable bit a part of it. The way that it is presently being run, does not give that a chance. The times when the comp has been played at a centre where the men and ladies can both play together has proved that it has been more enjoyable.

We can keep quiet and nothing will happen or we can discuss it, and see where it leads to.

Like you, I do not want to offend anyone, and also do not want a major change. Just my views.

 

[ROYGBIV]

Well, it was the first Country Cup i have bowled in (but I have watched my daughters bowl in a couple) so i don't have much experience in comparing this year to previous years.

It did seem to be flat compared to other events I have seen.

I do think Alicia's idea (posted in the "What a guy" thread) of bowling 8 games before changing has merit. Teams will need to have a mix of bowlers -those can bowl on oil and those that prefer the drier conditions. It would mean that teams will need to 'manage' their bowlers to suit the current conditions.

The idea of splitting the bowling between Albury and Wodonga on the two occasions they have Country Cup also would relieve the pressure of 7am starts and 1am finishes.

Any ideas that give the bowlers an opportunity to mingle and socialise has to be a good thing. Having bowled Senior Shield it is good to be able to have a night out and make new friends or reacquaint with old ones (no pun intended!) during the tournament. It would be good to do that during Country Cup as well.

Cheers

Roy

(ps hope that voice of yours is better Alicia!)

 

[grumpie]

The only way we can help Country Cup is to stop complaining about the format, this is the way it runs. If there is a solution then the bowlers and comittee need a forum to talk about it to find a solution, not get on here and whine.
Get some good ideas together and present them.
Country cup is run this way because there is no simple solution.
As for bowlers complaining about the format, simple , dont bowl let someone that wants to.
The way it is run at the moment is what makes it tough to bowl and thats why there is so much pleasure for the winning team.
As for supporters it is upto all associations to promote and get there bowlers to come and help there teams get across the line. As for the mens or ladies team staying back and supporting, well they need there rest to perform to there best for there association, not get made to stay in the centre and get tired.
In all if you think you have a solution present it to the VCTBA they may just listen
Gunther Czmok

 

[shaneg]

I Agree with Dave and Kev, as do a majority of bowlers i have spoken to over the last couple of years.

"We all love country cup, we all want to bowl, but it has become a bloody long tournament".

I look forward to it every year, not just for a great touranment and going there to try your best to win, but for me its catching up with guys that you only get to see once or twice a year.

Other than moving to a neutral centre and all bowling all together (which i conceed i can never see happeneing) some changes do need to be made.

I felt that this year was dead in atmosphere as well, there were only glimpses of noise over the weekend, tiredness had to play a part. At the moment it just feels like there is the laddies team (hi) and the guys team (bye)

When you spend approx $600 you want to have good weekend away, not just bowling but allow the catch ups.

We all want the same thing
"For Country Cup to continue to be the best TEAMS tournament in Vic"

 

[wheelbarrow]

The only way we can help Country Cup is to stop complaining about the format, this is the way it runs. If there is a solution then the bowlers and comittee need a forum to talk about it to find a solution, not get on here and whine.
Get some good ideas together and present them.
Country cup is run this way because there is no simple solution.
As for bowlers complaining about the format, simple , dont bowl let someone that wants to.
The way it is run at the moment is what makes it tough to bowl and thats why there is so much pleasure for the winning team.
As for supporters it is upto all associations to promote and get there bowlers to come and help there teams get across the line. As for the mens or ladies team staying back and supporting, well they need there rest to perform to there best for there association, not get made to stay in the centre and get tired.
In all if you think you have a solution present it to the VCTBA they may just listen
Gunther Czmok

Gee Gunther I thought that is what I was doing.

PUTTING IDEAS FORWARD.

I will always want to play Country Cup, regardless of the format, but what we don't want is to lose great bowlers because of the format, without trying to make it better.

This forum is a way to discuss ideas, to see what other bowlers feel BEFORE putting them to the Associations for comment.

I do not think your post helped anything with your quote "don't bowl".

Country Cup is a great tournament. If it is best for all to stay the way it is then so be it.

I would love to be able to stay and support the ladies, but the break in the middle does not allow that. I like the format that Alicia put forward where we bowl 8 games straight, then we have a decent break, BUT THAT IS JUST MY THOUGHTS.
And I should not be criticised for having my say.

David

 

[*chook :>*]

Thought I should put this in here:
........................................................................................................
You will not get a national tournament that will oil after 4 games. Not now, not ever. CCup, in the smaller centers, is the only tournament that I have ever bowled in this format. I think that a format change is in need here. My suggestion would be, based on this year:

>Ladies bowl 8 straight
>Lunch and Lane Maintenance
>Men bowl 8 straight

That cuts out 2 lots of oiling, saving approx. 2 hours.


Quote:
I will agree I did think there was a lack of atmosphere overall. Some parts were great others not so great.
I will admit I didn't like the 7am starts, I felt it was too early. Last year I bowled at Sale and we didn't finish until 2.30am and it didn't feel that late, but getting up at 5am or so did feel way too early. Although I will admit that starting early on the Monday has merit with people having to travel long distances.
With the exception of Geelong and Morwell (who can hold the whole tournament during the day) every other centre has to have split blocks and it's just the way it is.

It wasnt the early starts and the late finishes, it was the mucking around in the middle of the day that killed the atmosphere.
The stopping and starting takes its tol on our bodies (even us young ones ) in the form of lactic acid build ups, resulting in things like tight joints, swolen thumbs and fingers and fatigue. 4 games is only a warm up and then you have to stop and I dont know many country bowlers that know about recovery, and I'm pretty sure I dont know any that would have done it on the weekend.
Bowlers that are tried, sore and cant bowl the way they want, arent happy campers.
THAT is the REAL reason for the "dead atmosphere".

 

[grumpie]

David
Sorry but the point i am trying to get across is anyone can say as much as they like here but it doesnt change anything. Some people just complain to complain.
If we want changes take it all the way dont just get on here and complain and stop there.
In other words I agree with you.
Gunther

 

[*chook :>*]

I enjoyed the tourny just as much as the next person.
I love bowling CCup. But I also like supporting my teammates and catching up with mates that I only see once a year.
Yes the Ballarat juniors were there for support but not everyone can afford to have supporters fork out a few hundred dollars to travel with them and not bowl. That should be the job of the teammates. Men cheer on the ladies and the ladies cheer on the men.
This format at the moment doesnt allow any of this to happen.

Another idea, just to tweek my previous suggestion could be:

(games approx 1 hr)
Saturday
Ladies:
> 7am - Bowl 9 games
> 4pm - Lane Maintenance
Men:
> 5pm - Bowl 9 games
> 2am - Finish

Sunday
Ladies:
> 7am - Bowl 6 games
> 1pm - Lane Maintenance
Men:
> 2pm - Bowl 6 games
> 8pm - Finish

8:30 - Everyone goes to dinner, socialise, have a couple of drinks with mates etc...

Monday
Ladies:
> 7am - Bowl 7 games
> 2pm - Lane Maintenance
Men:
> 3pm - Bowl 7 games
> 10pm - Finish

Yes its 2 more games on Monday, but you want atmosphere and socialising, and the dinner allows that...
Also at the dinner you can do the proposed encouragement awards. After round 11 on Sunday give the bowlers a piece of paper to vote for an opposing bowler who you think deserves the award. That is how Presidents Shield and Rachuig do the Sportsperson Awards.

Just my suggestion. I would really like for this tourny to continue and if its a change that is needed then so be it..

 

[wheelbarrow]

David
Sorry but the point i am trying to get across is anyone can say as much as they like here but it doesnt change anything. Some people just complain to complain.
If we want changes take it all the way dont just get on here and complain and stop there.
In other words I agree with you.
Gunther

Gunther

No worries. I am smiling again.

Given that the same sort of things were spoken about in 2007, I think you are right.

Even though the committee reads this forum, they obviously do not want to change without "official" notification from Associations. Problem is that not too many associations are interested in bringing forward ideas. Maybe it has been put forward without getting through. If it has, I appologise to those people.

I am rapt that a person of Alicia's standing, knowledge and YOUTH has taken an interest to put forward her ideas.

Well done.

Let's see if we will still be talking about it after next years Country Cup.

David

 

[Deano]

If we did that Alicia we might have to start later on the Monday because if we having a few drinks with mates there will be some sore heads Monday morning. HAHAHA'
Deano

 

[*chook :>*]

If we did that Alicia we might have to start later on the Monday because if we having a few drinks with mates there will be some sore heads Monday morning. HAHAHA'
Deano

Makes it all the more challenging!

I'd even get up early to laugh at you all cringing at the sound of the ball smashing the pins because your head hurts! poor things hahaha

 

[hegs]

Makes it all the more challenging!
I'd even get up early to laugh at you all cringing at the sound of the ball smashing the pins because your head hurts! poor things hahaha

And which year is that different from now
Woza

 

[NoodleS]

I totally agree with Alicia on the 8 game block format. I am happy the way it is for its a great challenge but I think that if there were to be any change at all that should be the only one. As Alicia has said in NO national tournament ever do they oil between 4 game blocks and with the right pattern you can get the oil to hold up quit well over 8 games.

 

[bowlrig]

You will not get a national tournament that will oil after 4 games. Not now, not ever.

This is correct, most National tournaments re-condition their lanes after 12 or 16 games, we are doing ours after 20 games at the moment.
Going to 8 matches (which would be 32 games without a reoil) would take any of your power players out of the game and those with not much speed would also struggle, especially alot of the ladies.

with the right pattern you can get the oil to hold up quit well over 8 games.

90% of the country centres that hold Country Cup do not at this stage have a lane machine capable of laying such a pattern.

The only way to make Country Cup shorter for socialising is to have less games.

What do you all think of the following:
We could have 2 minor divisions (6 teams in each) within Country Cup itself.
These divisions could consist of teams 1 ~ 6 and 7 ~ 12 (no bye have a twelfth team) from the previous year's ladder or from a predetermined criteria of selection.
Division A play each other twice and play each team from division B once only and vice versa.
This would then be only 15 games for the weekend, every team still gets to play every team at least once.
It may help get the lower teams up the ladder a bit.
The lane draw would need a little work.

I don't know the answers or even if this idea has merit.

As for atmosphere, the bowlers are different know, alot of us older, several teams that used to bring supporters along don't anymore.

Enough waffling on for now.

Rob

PS...this was just an idea not a solution.

 

[Gatsby]

Unfortunately Country Cup is very complex and any suggested variations to change always have negatives which is why we never seem to be able to change.

Rob's suggestion is good in theory, the problem i see is how you rank teams. As we are all playing for the overall trophy then you would rank according to final placings in overall.

Therefore a team like Albury who finished 8th overall would be classified as 7-12 and therefore would get to play the weaker teams twice. They have a very strong Mens team (they finished 3rd this year and won last year). This gives them a huge chance to win Men's section compared with Shep and Sunraysia who would have to play the stronger teams twice.

It's funny to hear the power players commenting about suggestion of less oilings as being unfair to them. I listened to other people during the country cup weekend comment that the conditions now favour the power players which means the non power players feel they can no longer be competitive. (In some cases these bowlers won't be bowling again for this very reason). Just goes to show that it is very difficult to keep everyone happy.

We had all these discussions last year and no-one could come up with a suitable solution and i reckon it will be the same again this time around. The extra time added with lane maintenance has definitely made the competition longer and meant men don't hang around to watch ladies bowl and vice versa - is the option of less lane maintenance really an option?

The tournament is still huge fun and always will be, it just needs some fine tuning. I think the main reason people are complaining is to try to improve this great event and make it even better. I think this is the best place to suggest changes as a huge number of CCup bowlers are members of this site (though don't always post). Any solutions can be thrashed out and if a suitable choice is discovered then that can be taken to VCTBA.

 

[wchester]

Just wanted to interject a couple of ideas...

Bowling 8 team games without a re-oil is suicide. No condition can hold up for 40 games per lane bed (8x5) with the current lineup of bowling balls being used.

In the States there is an extremely popular team format which is called a "Swiss" Each and every game is a postion round, with wins - losses determining the order of finish. You could still use the 7 points per game format, so that would remain the same.

Position rounds every game serve a few purposes.

1) It tends to keep the field from spreading out so much

2) Makes for great spectator viewing with the current 1st and 2nd place team facing off every game.

3) Keeps the bottom teams from becoming disinterested because they are always bowling the team which is closest to them in the standings.

The biggest advantage of all is that it would mean the Country Cup could be played over less games, the total amount which could be voted upon by the Country Cup committee or bowlers themselves.

Of course there are negatives to this format as well. One of which would be that no longer would any team be guaranteed of facing every other team in the competition.

 

[rusty5]

Would it be to drastic to keep the format as is and just change to 4 man teams which would make it more competitive. Most centres have 3 to 4 really good bowlers and then it drops away a lot for the not so strong teams. The big plus is it will save a lot of time and everybody still plays everyone twice.

 

[wheelbarrow]

Some really good ideas coming through.

One point I would like to mention. The only time that I can remember where we have oiled after 4 games Before this year) is Bendigo. Gatsby - are you able to shed any light as to other times.

Maybe that is one of the points that makes this tourny so unique(and should not have changed in the first place, without agreement). With the changing conditions, bowlers have to change.