extreme oil patterns
- Thread starter tonybaby
- Start date
B
Biggens
I bowled on the condition on the weekend at Mt Druitt and all i can say is thank god we finally got some oil in Western Sydney!!!! My appologies if i offend the masses of people who want to see a swing fest on the lanes. As for the cream rising to the top, it did. The lanes weren't crap, tough - yes, very.. But not crap. I seem to remember seeing all bowlers being punished for missing their targets, including myself many a time 
I also remember seeing quite a number of bowlers being rewarded for hitting their targets. And if i can remember correctly, this was the same for all styles of bowlers. Now if that does not constitute a fair condition, than what does? I just think that the kind of condition at Mt Druitt puts the emphasis back on the sparing game (of which i think mine needs a bit of work )
Of course i will hear arguements about that kind of condition suiting people who bowl down the guts and disadvantaging those who like to swing the ball, but how many of the bowlers that made the top 14 on a standard house wet dry condition dont bowl inside out. I can guarantee the figure is not 0.
But on the point of bowling on a condition that prepares you for international competition, i obviously can't comment from experience, nor will i ever be able to, but would putting down a condition like that really help our local bowling tournaments? I think not. The only thing that will help our local bowling tournaments is money, plain and simple. Reduce the price, increase the entries.
Easier said than done eh??
Cheers
Peter Biggs
The 11th Frame
Blacktown
I also remember seeing quite a number of bowlers being rewarded for hitting their targets. And if i can remember correctly, this was the same for all styles of bowlers. Now if that does not constitute a fair condition, than what does? I just think that the kind of condition at Mt Druitt puts the emphasis back on the sparing game (of which i think mine needs a bit of work )Of course i will hear arguements about that kind of condition suiting people who bowl down the guts and disadvantaging those who like to swing the ball, but how many of the bowlers that made the top 14 on a standard house wet dry condition dont bowl inside out. I can guarantee the figure is not 0.
But on the point of bowling on a condition that prepares you for international competition, i obviously can't comment from experience, nor will i ever be able to, but would putting down a condition like that really help our local bowling tournaments? I think not. The only thing that will help our local bowling tournaments is money, plain and simple. Reduce the price, increase the entries.
Easier said than done eh??
Cheers
Peter Biggs
The 11th Frame
Blacktown
K
kooze bowling
hey you know it only hurts the game complaining about this stuff. its the SAME for everyone and if you cant adjust then you shouldnt win. The problem is people have it in their head they must shoot over 200 avg to be any good which is rubbish, just take a look at the current world youth champs and are you people going to say KEGEL doesnt know there stuff. Bowling is nothing like most other sports, there really is only 1 constant and that is you have to knock down 10 pins. So deal with it and stop looking at the so called CARD (200avg) and just bowl to be top, and if you are and you didnt get 250 games then be happy that you are on top.
Potter
lost
I bowled at Mt Druitt & it was tough - everyone had to think, be consistant and accurate & this is what bowling should be about. There were many older bowlers with lots of complaints - really p***** off because they did not cut BUT even though the averages were not high the most accurate bowlers made the final - it took only a one second mind wander to miss & leave some horrible stuff so it was a challenge - I loved it & I think TBA should be making the game more challenging for everyone - it makes us mad but it also makes us better bowlers in the end. & yes some bowlers did sand a ball but sanding to suit conditions is a part of the game isn't it?
Taken from Bowling Digital in regards the WYC. Interview with the Kegel Lane Guy. Some food for thought for this particular topic.
It is hot in Germany. Temperatures are up to 38 degrees Celsius or 100 degrees on the Fahrenheit scale since more than five weeks. Players and officials at the 9th World Youth Championships in Berlin suffer from the heat, in and outside the bowling center and even in the hotels.
We were interested how much the heat affects the lane maintenance and talked to lane expert Ted Thompson, Kegel's representative in Europe and technical consultants to the WTBA Technical Committee.
Question: Ted, how difficult is it for you and the Kegel crew to maintain the lanes?
Ted Thompson: "It is HOT in Berlin!!! The lanes are holding up very well even though the temperature is high since we are using Kegel Offense HV, oil designed specially for this type of environment.
This oil was designed by Kegel for the PBA Tour’s TV show and the high heat lighting. We have had good success with this oil even in events using an outdoor TV Show."
Question: But have seen many low scores and even a sub-100 score in the singles event. Why's that?
Ted Thompson: "The priority for a World Championship event is to provide a challenge and good competition, not a high scoring environment. I must reiterate, the oil pattern is only a part of the total playing environment.
The high temperature, the lane surface, the truer pin carry (new pins), the added pressure by competing in a World Championship as well as basic things like travel, sleeping in a strange bed and time differences for many players all add up to a challenge only the most prepared will be able to handle."
(Why should our Premier Events be any different?)
Question: It seems as if some players are completely lost on short oil?
Ted Thompson: "So far the players have only played on the short pattern (editor's note: We talked before the Girl's doubles was finished). From what I can see overall, the youth still lack the knowledge and experience needed for the short oil pattern with regard to technique, lane play and ball choices.
This particular short oil pattern has one of the higher ratios (least amount of oil to the greatest amount of oil) that have been used in recent history for this type of event. Even though the long pattern is flatter than the short, I look for the scores to increase slightly in the doubles event because most of the players will be in their comfort zone.
By the way, the medal winners in the boys' singles event all used less aggressive bowling balls the top two used low flare urethane and the third-placed bowler used low flare reactive.
The key is to find a way for a tough condition to work for you, like these guys did, instead of complaining why it was crap.
It is hot in Germany. Temperatures are up to 38 degrees Celsius or 100 degrees on the Fahrenheit scale since more than five weeks. Players and officials at the 9th World Youth Championships in Berlin suffer from the heat, in and outside the bowling center and even in the hotels.
We were interested how much the heat affects the lane maintenance and talked to lane expert Ted Thompson, Kegel's representative in Europe and technical consultants to the WTBA Technical Committee.
Question: Ted, how difficult is it for you and the Kegel crew to maintain the lanes?
Ted Thompson: "It is HOT in Berlin!!! The lanes are holding up very well even though the temperature is high since we are using Kegel Offense HV, oil designed specially for this type of environment.
This oil was designed by Kegel for the PBA Tour’s TV show and the high heat lighting. We have had good success with this oil even in events using an outdoor TV Show."
Question: But have seen many low scores and even a sub-100 score in the singles event. Why's that?
Ted Thompson: "The priority for a World Championship event is to provide a challenge and good competition, not a high scoring environment. I must reiterate, the oil pattern is only a part of the total playing environment.
The high temperature, the lane surface, the truer pin carry (new pins), the added pressure by competing in a World Championship as well as basic things like travel, sleeping in a strange bed and time differences for many players all add up to a challenge only the most prepared will be able to handle."
(Why should our Premier Events be any different?)
Question: It seems as if some players are completely lost on short oil?
Ted Thompson: "So far the players have only played on the short pattern (editor's note: We talked before the Girl's doubles was finished). From what I can see overall, the youth still lack the knowledge and experience needed for the short oil pattern with regard to technique, lane play and ball choices.
This particular short oil pattern has one of the higher ratios (least amount of oil to the greatest amount of oil) that have been used in recent history for this type of event. Even though the long pattern is flatter than the short, I look for the scores to increase slightly in the doubles event because most of the players will be in their comfort zone.
By the way, the medal winners in the boys' singles event all used less aggressive bowling balls the top two used low flare urethane and the third-placed bowler used low flare reactive.
The key is to find a way for a tough condition to work for you, like these guys did, instead of complaining why it was crap.
AdrianS
This is the future!!!
hmmm, seeing we're having 5 patterns 'just like the PBA' next yr, wonder if a couple dozen bowlers will have there own 'just like the PBA' response, I'm bettin an 80 grit 'scorch ball' or 10 might just make a few showings next yr in the practice sessions before a squad starts.
This is what I love to see, Tricked-Up lane conditions, not!
Stop tricking them up, or sometimes you end up with a disaster, which from what I've read here is what happened at Mt Druitt. Usually the problem in hard to score on lanes is the Back-Ends, not cleaned properly.
Mattr came up with a good point about spending $300 bucks to bowl on something you have never experienced before, so obviously you can't be prepared for it, therefore if it keeps up, you end up with NO bowlers, and if you think they all want harder conditions than see how hard it is to get a Sport Bowling League together.
Those Old Bowlers who want us to go back to the Dark Ages where scores were very hard, don't know that bowlers were averaging 230 in the USA in the 1950's. I can also remember the worst average I seen win a Tournament in my time in bowling was 180, this was bowled by Ron Golby to win a South Pacific Spot at the old Penrith Bowl about 1974, now this was an old 30 Centre that had a lot of pins OFF-SPOT which made it very hard to carry. People averaged 200+ in the 1960's in Australia, so for top line bowlers to not average 190 in todays climate means the lanes were not FAIR.
willey, JMHO.
Stop tricking them up, or sometimes you end up with a disaster, which from what I've read here is what happened at Mt Druitt. Usually the problem in hard to score on lanes is the Back-Ends, not cleaned properly.
Mattr came up with a good point about spending $300 bucks to bowl on something you have never experienced before, so obviously you can't be prepared for it, therefore if it keeps up, you end up with NO bowlers, and if you think they all want harder conditions than see how hard it is to get a Sport Bowling League together.
Those Old Bowlers who want us to go back to the Dark Ages where scores were very hard, don't know that bowlers were averaging 230 in the USA in the 1950's. I can also remember the worst average I seen win a Tournament in my time in bowling was 180, this was bowled by Ron Golby to win a South Pacific Spot at the old Penrith Bowl about 1974, now this was an old 30 Centre that had a lot of pins OFF-SPOT which made it very hard to carry. People averaged 200+ in the 1960's in Australia, so for top line bowlers to not average 190 in todays climate means the lanes were not FAIR.
willey, JMHO.
ENTER NAME HERE
New Member
please someone correct me if i'm wrong. I dont have a clue why we are compareing to the americans. Who here in oz can bowl and/or afford to bowl 50 - 100 games a week in league and practice, have big dollar sponsorships etc, I can tell you now that it probably be less than a handfull of people, and as for prize money, its only a fraction compared to the usa so why do we have to be like and have lane contitions like them. there is just no comparison. As for people saying that the tougher / heavy oil conditions is experience for our elite bowlers for when they go overseas, NOW THINK ABOUT THIS PEOPLE what is this saying to the average tournament bowler who travels within a few hours to get to a tourny, what do you think they're gonna say NOT GOIN TO THE NEXT ONE or somthing like that. Plus think of the ratio % between local entrants and interstate entrants. I'm not taking anything away from the top bowlers and as for the top 8 at mount druitt, it was really good to watch our top aussie bowlers slug it out, well done to make it on a tough condition. But the BOTTOM line is: these guys will be at the top in just about any condition, so why not make the condition playable for all, then at least if a local goes into one of these tournaments paying $270 at a 195-200 ave and averages 204-207 and dosen't make the cut, he/she wont be so dissapointed that they bowled well rather than bowl like most people did on the weekend and a good possibility of them coming back for another go next tounament. If it stays on this track there losing my money and i bet i'm not the only one. AS FOR GEORGE'S 297, THE LAST BALL HE THREW WAS A PERFECT RELEASE, EVERY THING LOOKED GOOD UNTIL ABOUT HALFWAY DOWN THE LANE AND THE BALL JUST DECIDED TO START MOVING RIGHT AND WENT STRAIGHT THROUGH THE NOSE. SOME OF THE PEOPLE BEHIND WATCHING THOUGHT HE'D HAD IT AND COULDN'T BELIEVE THE RESULT, AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER ALL OF HIS SHOTS EXEPT THE ONE IN THE 8TH OR 9TH(cant remember) WERE THE SAME. I do believe my self that if there were any other condition on that lane he would of had it.
Thats just a plain example on the condition that it was.
But thats just my opinion.
Thats just a plain example on the condition that it was.
But thats just my opinion.
tenpin albury
Member
I haven't had the chances to bowl in alot of different centres across Australia like alot of you so I cant comment on the long, short, heavey or lighter oiled lanes like you all have.
But everyone who has posted so far has a good point one way or another.
You need to have people scoring or they loose interest and don't come again and we all know the toughest thing about this sport in Australia is keeping the interest up so we can develop some good bowlers, this is an unfortunate fact.
On the other hand there are 100's of 300 (PERFECT) games bowled each year these days, where this once was an honour to have claimed the PERFECT game now it seems like a necesity to give everyone the chance to grasp it or you just dont get enough interest into these tournaments.
Now I'm fairly young so I also haven't experienced bowling as it was before reactive and particle and all the new oils and oil machines where accuracey was the key but I was brought up with some pretty important values in life and that is if you wish to succeed then you need to put in the hard work rather then just wait for everything to be dished up to you on a silver platter...
In a perfect world this would work but unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world. Money makes the world go around and you dont get money in bowling without giving everyone what they want.
Cheers Ash
But everyone who has posted so far has a good point one way or another.
You need to have people scoring or they loose interest and don't come again and we all know the toughest thing about this sport in Australia is keeping the interest up so we can develop some good bowlers, this is an unfortunate fact.
On the other hand there are 100's of 300 (PERFECT) games bowled each year these days, where this once was an honour to have claimed the PERFECT game now it seems like a necesity to give everyone the chance to grasp it or you just dont get enough interest into these tournaments.
Now I'm fairly young so I also haven't experienced bowling as it was before reactive and particle and all the new oils and oil machines where accuracey was the key but I was brought up with some pretty important values in life and that is if you wish to succeed then you need to put in the hard work rather then just wait for everything to be dished up to you on a silver platter...
In a perfect world this would work but unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world. Money makes the world go around and you dont get money in bowling without giving everyone what they want.
Cheers Ash
tonybaby
Member
Complaining?or discussing? surely it hurts the sport more by failing hands down to give the people who handed in their $300 and put their money where their mouth is a reason to want to compete again,as many have touched on, this is not the states, bowling gear there is cheap/almost disposable ,they play on many different conditions and there are hundreds of top bowlers ,different country here different game ,why not make the patterns progressively more difficult through qualifying?....as for your thoughts about being able to adjust for every condition, well if that was the case surely tiger woods would win every tournament he entered!!!kooze bowling said:
Easy Tiger
Active Member
tenpin albury said:
If you put the work in, and have the required ability, you will win. That is what hard work, dedication, and sacrifice brings (and some money). You will be the best whether the average required to win is 200 or 250.
That is not the issue here.
The issue is how condusive conditions should be made to higher scoring, and forgivability of lane conditions.
I just do not see the point in making lanes extremely tough just for the sake of it. For a specialised series, such as the sports series here in Queensland, that's fine - people actually enter for that challenge, myself included. Then again, I'm only driving 45 mins to compete in it too, not flying half way across Australia.
I believe that tightening up lane conditions to a rediculous level will kill national level tournament bowling in this country. We just don't have the field numbers required to make it work! Or the prize funds to keep people interested. For a first place of $2500 are people likely to travel half way across the continent to throw possibly a 180 average and get slaughtered by people with far more experience? No. For $25,000 would they? Yes. It's called risk vs return, and we all do it subconsciously every time we open a tournament entry form.
Unfortunately, at this time we do not have those sort of pay outs. So we need to attract players through other means. Making conditions too tough for the ordinary player to compete will not encourage this.
It is seriously like people have a phobia of high scores! I would expect to see the winner of an Australian National Tournament averaging 220+, and if not, I'd be asking why not? Not only as a bowler myself, but any member of the public would be thinking the same. "These guys are meant to be the best in the country - they should be scoring like it".
TBA is moving in the right direction with this rotational 5 pattern policy. I honestly think people need to stop bagging scoring, and get back onto what really matters - publicising the sport, generating interest, and creating some sort of harmony within the sport. We will not get anywhere if we continue to bag lanes, technology, governing bodies, other bowlers, scoring, and all the rest of it that gets brought up every 3 days in this sport.
Accept the sport as it is, and get behind it to support it. Leave the rest to the governing body, that's what they're there for!
Some good points there Easytiger, nothing wrong with high scoring, what are we afraid of, 300 average, I don't think so.
The PBA seen the light a few years ago, the lanes were that tough on Finals day the scores were mediocre, they were losing ratings, and different Bowlers were winning, which nobody knew, the so called Elite could'nt handle the conditions, because they were so abstract that only a certain type of bowler could score, on any given day.
KISS method is best.
willey.
The PBA seen the light a few years ago, the lanes were that tough on Finals day the scores were mediocre, they were losing ratings, and different Bowlers were winning, which nobody knew, the so called Elite could'nt handle the conditions, because they were so abstract that only a certain type of bowler could score, on any given day.
KISS method is best.
willey.
tenpin albury
Member
i agree with you entirely tiger in my post I also said a tiny bit along those lines. All I meant was everyone is correct when it comes to the matter if you know what I mean.
I mean I personally wouldn't wanna bowl on a condition suited to the most versitile bowlers only, you would like a little bit of forgiveness.
And yeah as always everything comes down to money, and like you said tiger instead of bagging things lets all get behind the sport and promote its ass off...
I mean I personally wouldn't wanna bowl on a condition suited to the most versitile bowlers only, you would like a little bit of forgiveness.
And yeah as always everything comes down to money, and like you said tiger instead of bagging things lets all get behind the sport and promote its ass off...
Brenton_Davy
900Global bowler
Its the out of control scoring pace that is one of the main reasons that bowling will never make it into the olympics too. The sport has no credibility in world sport because it is too easy to score because of
a) the easy lane conditions that proliferate throughout the world where scoring and skill are NOT in most cases commensurate
b) the technology of the bowling ball and pins that conspire to give the bowler more power than their ability dictates they should have
c) the commercial realities as seen by proprietors, manufacturers etc in promoting higher scoring to increase lineage or sell more product.
Sure there were occassions in the past where people shot massive averages. The Budweiser team when they shot 3858 for 3 games is an example. What must be realised there is that the series was shot on a shellac lane surface that had been grooved with continuous play to create a track to the pocket that was almost impossible to miss on. Then it bacame a question of carry and those guys had it in spades. Then again these werent just any house hacks either. **** Weber, Tom Hennessy, Ray Bluth, Pat Paterson and (someone help me here please!!!) were all legends of the sport of that era, but they had to have help to achieve that score.
Willey:
The ratings on the PBA telecasts only dropped after the centres artificially inflated league scores and league hacks started scoring better than the pros. Sure some telecasts scored high, but the majority were not all that high scoring. There were lower scores and higher ratings because average bowlers could see the fact that the pros were better players than they were, however when house conditions began getting tricked up as they have been for the last 25 years, the line between the pros and house hacks has become increasingly blurred.
a) the easy lane conditions that proliferate throughout the world where scoring and skill are NOT in most cases commensurate
b) the technology of the bowling ball and pins that conspire to give the bowler more power than their ability dictates they should have
c) the commercial realities as seen by proprietors, manufacturers etc in promoting higher scoring to increase lineage or sell more product.
Sure there were occassions in the past where people shot massive averages. The Budweiser team when they shot 3858 for 3 games is an example. What must be realised there is that the series was shot on a shellac lane surface that had been grooved with continuous play to create a track to the pocket that was almost impossible to miss on. Then it bacame a question of carry and those guys had it in spades. Then again these werent just any house hacks either. **** Weber, Tom Hennessy, Ray Bluth, Pat Paterson and (someone help me here please!!!) were all legends of the sport of that era, but they had to have help to achieve that score.
Willey:
The ratings on the PBA telecasts only dropped after the centres artificially inflated league scores and league hacks started scoring better than the pros. Sure some telecasts scored high, but the majority were not all that high scoring. There were lower scores and higher ratings because average bowlers could see the fact that the pros were better players than they were, however when house conditions began getting tricked up as they have been for the last 25 years, the line between the pros and house hacks has become increasingly blurred.
Easy Tiger
Active Member
Brenton_Davy said:
a) This is more a matter for FIQ and WTBA in terms of the Olympics, not us. We prepare the "elite athletes" in these new training camps formed by TBA and send them off to compete on these FIQ patterns. This should not have bearing on our national circuit which struggles to maintain decent entry numbers.
b) With the rotation I get, I am happy to go back to plastic, as I will carry more times than most out there. I am sure Belmo would be in the same boat. However, to keep some kind of equality in the sport, I don't think that would be a good idea. A bowler with 2 revs can beat me even though I put a lot more power and effort into my shot. I'm okay with that. Going back to old technology will not help our current situation.
c) You will never stop this. Period. So we need to find other ways of promoting the sport. Most people I talk to about bowling, don't say to me "oh bowling used to be good and challenging, but now with the advent of reactive and particle bowling balls, and walled up lane conditions, it's just no challenge anymore, it's become boring". What they do tend to say is "what's particle?" and "what's a lane condition?" and "How much did you say a game plus shoe hire is going to cost me?!"
Bowling is expensive, bowling has always had a low profile here, and that profile is not increasing. Kids are becoming lazier, etc, you've heard the story before.
This is why we struggle.
Not because strokers can get better carry at times than me
I know this might be a little off topic and in no way am i having a dig at any body in particular, BUT.
I have issues with what you are trying to imply there Tim, as far as I am concerned when was this sport been about how many Revs you can get on a Ball... Just because the guy beside MR 2 revs can get all over it, doesn’t make them a better bowler than say Mr2 revs, the guy who keeps on hitting his mark all day and yes MAKING THOSE SPARES that need to be made is the better bowler in my eyes...
Maybe that’s part of the problem these days everyone has this I hit it harder than you syndrome rather than accepting the fact that everyone plays the game differently...Watching Belmo and Walshy is great yes, but at the end of the day there are other guys out there that don’t get all over it that are just as enjoyable to watch on there day also..
I have issues with what you are trying to imply there Tim, as far as I am concerned when was this sport been about how many Revs you can get on a Ball... Just because the guy beside MR 2 revs can get all over it, doesn’t make them a better bowler than say Mr2 revs, the guy who keeps on hitting his mark all day and yes MAKING THOSE SPARES that need to be made is the better bowler in my eyes...
Maybe that’s part of the problem these days everyone has this I hit it harder than you syndrome rather than accepting the fact that everyone plays the game differently...Watching Belmo and Walshy is great yes, but at the end of the day there are other guys out there that don’t get all over it that are just as enjoyable to watch on there day also..
going back to prize funds look at the superclassic held at manhattan, they got 150 bowlers plus, bowling on a easy pattern for 10k but people paid 400 to bowl, i say bring that back. Wall up the pattern let the best person win,
its simple you put down a hard pattern and see everyone struggle to shoot 180, a hack can come off the street and just about compete, is this what we want
its simple you put down a hard pattern and see everyone struggle to shoot 180, a hack can come off the street and just about compete, is this what we want
Easy Tiger
Active Member
Jase said:
Jase that's fine, and I totally understand what you are saying. The person with the most power doesn't always win, and nor should they necessarily.
What I was saying was in relation to Brenton's post (no disrespect intended), but he was saying about bowling balls and pins allowing a player to have more power than their ability dictates that they should have.
GeorgeF
Hypercell = Hyperhook!
Selecting the right ball, cover and drilling is a skill in itself. I'm walking proof you can win at a National level with less than 15 revs per shot. Knowledge of oil, patterns and angles will also give less challenged bowlers advantages.
It has never been and never will be just about revs. The real issue at the moment is the scoring pace of our National events versus people likely to show up next time after they avg 180.
Like I said, I'm not at liberty to comment on that but I think you get my drift.
It has never been and never will be just about revs. The real issue at the moment is the scoring pace of our National events versus people likely to show up next time after they avg 180.
Like I said, I'm not at liberty to comment on that but I think you get my drift.
I was not able to bowl at the nsw open or even see how tough the condition was. But i think ill keep my money in my pocket if that is goingto become the norm.
I work in a bowl and get customers saying to me all the time i saw this show on fox or i have seen this person bowl and he or she is suppose to be good and they only bowled 170.
Give every one a chance put a condition down that everyone has a shot on. Are people going to be happy that they bowled 210 and did not make the cut?
Or how about 170 and that same person will not come back next year.
Someone mention the KISS method sounds good to me.
Chris.
I work in a bowl and get customers saying to me all the time i saw this show on fox or i have seen this person bowl and he or she is suppose to be good and they only bowled 170.
Give every one a chance put a condition down that everyone has a shot on. Are people going to be happy that they bowled 210 and did not make the cut?
Or how about 170 and that same person will not come back next year.
Someone mention the KISS method sounds good to me.
Chris.
