Are we promoting Tournaments Properly?

[Jase]

Are we promoting Tournaments Properly?

Since the last few national events on the Calendar haven’t attracted too much interest I was wondering are we not promoting the events in the right way…

I mean let’s look at it a few points…

Since Start of 2006
Cairns Open 56 Men…22 Ladies
SA Cup 82 Entries
Australian Open 89 Entries (1 of the biggest tournaments of the year)
K&K Classic 115 Men…42 Ladies
Arafura Classic 25 Men…14 Ladies
Perth Cup 66 Entries
Melbourne Cup 115+ Entries
NSW Open…63 Men…27 Ladies
Mackay Open…54 Entries
Hobart Cup…46 Entries
SPC…70 Men…22 Ladies (1 of the biggest tournaments of the year)
Sun City Open 66 Entries
Brunswick Cup 84 Entries

This Year So far
Cairns Open 70 Entries (Down by 7 Total)
SA CUP 69 Entries (Down by 13)
Canberra Open 54 Entries (just down full stop on numbers)
Australian Open (2 and a bit week’s away) 60 if no one has pulled out and we call this a Major… (Down 29 with two weeks away)

What are we missing here other than entries???

1. Price to travel and enter?
2. Formats?
3. Promoting Events?
4. The fact that there are too many events for both Adults and Youth sometimes only 1 week apart at the same venue?
5. ?????????

Any ideas on what is needed…Should be looking to combine Youth, Adult, and Seniors into one event and have separate prize funds for each group, just to get some atmosphere back to these events…

Should we be reducing the National circuit to lesser events and try and start up the state circuits again bit like QLD has…

I think before its completely stuffed (maybe that’s what it is now) some ideas are needed and perhaps tried to turn the sport of Ten Pin bowling around…

Your thoughts?

 

[PeterB]

Can't remember the last tournament I bowled in, but for me it was always the prize money that attracted me and the class of bowler I was up against.

These days it's the huge finanacial outlay one has to make with the prospect of very little return that keeps me sitting at home. Many years ago it didn't matter. I was more in it for the experience and the thrill. As I've gotten older and had a family, it's just not an option anymore.

Money is the only thing that will turn the sport around as far as I'm concerned. People like you Jase will always be needed to push this wonderful sport forward, or at least try to, but without more money in the sport I can't see it advancing.

 

[ratty133]

Interesting thread Jase. I for one do bowl my fair share of national tournaments and coming from Perth, it doefinately has to do with flight costs. I am in the process of organising a national tournament to be held in Perth for either later this year or early next year, and i have been in consultation with qantas as to organising some cheap airfares for bowlers to come over here and compete in the west.

Maybe its something that we propose to tba about?????? That we organise some cheaper airfares for some or all tournaments (maybe the Majors for starters? Just to try and increase the numbers, as i feel that the major reason for numbers being so low is the travel costs.

As for the entry fees and the rest, that i dont feel is too much of a problem.

Just my 2 cents

Matt

 

[Easy Tiger]

What are we missing here other than entries???

Price to travel and enter? - Yes, becoming too prohibitive for many.
Formats? - Multiple re-entry. Great idea! We might catch up to the rest of the world yet.
Promoting Events? - In bowling centres it is non-existent, but let's face it, the general "calibre" of bowler who would travel to compete in these events is less than it used to be - there just aren't as many bowlers at that level who are prepared to compete anymore.
The fact that there are too many events for both Adults and Youth sometimes only 1 week apart at the same venue? - Yes, just look at Brunswick in Canberra, great example.

I personally think lane conditions are another reason. You can argue til the cows come home but fact is that your general joe bloggs won't keep coming back to average 160 and get slaughtered whilst paying $500+ a trip for the "experience". If that same Joe Bloggs has a mortgage, that $500 becomes very valuable thanks. If nothing else, for a holiday for himself and his better half..

Last point - a lot of people are just sick and tired of the daily bull**** that goes on in this sport. This whole "he said she said they said that he said" crap is so childish and damaging to the sport - it seems there isn't a single day where someone isn't backstabbing someone or talking about someone behind their backs, or spreading rumours, or just generally bitching about other bowlers.

Seriously - bowling needs to come into the new century and leave all the other crap behind. The other option is the path it's headed down now.

PS - it's good to see you thinking and trying to come up with ideas Jase.. if we could all work together it would be great. I'm just unsure if this sport is capable of teamwork and common goals.

 

[Little Weed]

My comments - (a senior point of view) - I will go to a tournament anywhere if I can be sure I am going to enjoy participating. I want to bowl against my own age group, I want to bowl the best I possibly can and I want to meet up with "mates" from around the country, but I dont want to spend 2 weeks wages in one hit.

The entry fee does have some bearing, but mostly its the cost of getting there, accommodation and other expenses like taxis etc. For instance, I was tempted to enter the Vic150 this year for the first time. On consideration I changed my mind because (1) mostly young bowlers participating, would need to take 2 extra days off work to travel, reasonable accommodation hard to find at Easter. So in the end it turned out to be too expensive for me.

I am no longer interested in "the challenge of the lanes", I cannot overpower the lanes with speed any more, and I cannot cope with huge backends/overly dry lanes.

For me a local circuit would be ideal, like Twin Tour in Brisbane for instance.
The seniors ranking points tournaments are good, but getting too expensive now to take 4 balls on a plane, as well as all the other costs involved.

I dont mind not winning, or even not cashing from a tournament, but I do want to come home feeling I have given it my best shot.

Personally I think AMF centres are losing league and tournament bowlers because the lane conditions have deteriorated so badly, bowlers are getting demoralised with their scores. Perhaps if AMF purchased decent lane oil conditions would improve.


Josie Adams

 

[xpense]

[*]Price to travel and enter?
[*]Formats?
[*]Promoting Events?
[*]The fact that there are too many events for both Adults and Youth sometimes only 1 week apart at the same venue?
[*]?????????

Jase great post mate.

Price:Personally, the price has just gotten out of reach, for the enjoyment factor.

Events: So many events, also means that if you have the ability to travel you will always be high on the rankings, as you can just keep going to the next one to improve your ranking scores, by replacing poorer ones with better ones (if your lucky)

Formats: Qualifying dont think is to much of a problem, but the next rounds are a little stale. Always the top 30 or so, cut to 10/12 these days. (a couple have more interesting formats - K&K with the top 15, Melb Cup with top 30, 2 groups of 15, then top 15, even AO last year was enjoyable as a final)

Promotion: Lets face it this does not happen in a bowl, very often. It is more through this website, and the word of mouth. 2 weeks from AO, have not seen an entry form at my bowl (in Vic)

Other Factor 1: please nobady take offence to this. Almost always the same top 10. gets dishartening for bowlers, and the find reasons not to bowl. (personally find it a challenge to try and knock off one the these regular cashers)

Other Factor 2: Lane Conditions Joe blow now has a lot easier house pattern to play on, they think l am good enough to give this go, they turn up, and suddenly they are averaging approx 40 pins below league average....the response i'm not doing that again, thus no local support from the bowlers, which made up those missing numbers. The old adage of a joe blow bowler (and a lot of others, me included), the 200 average barrier.....a bowler averages 200, they walk away happy, thinking l gave it my best, averaged over the card. They walk away with a 160 and think, why when l average 200 in league. next year when the entry forms come out, they think twice about it, and they remember that 160 average and the majority go no way, not again.

Lets face, if the tournaments had the house shots, the bowlers would all be happy, they would return year after year, and the cream would still rise to the top, in the majority of events.

Other Factor 3: The prizefund issue. Most bowlers look at the bottom of the cut these days, and say it wont cover expenses, l wont go.

The sport needs more people like you Jase, to try and bring it back...keep trying mate.....Maybe see you over the AO weekend.

 

[willey]

It's the MONEY.

Or lack of it for Prize Money.

In 1981-82 the Trish Datson at Liverpool had $4000 first prize, same as the SPC, how does that compare today. I worked in bowling Centre's right up till 2005 and I honestly could'nt tell you how much the SPC paid out in prize money as it was'nt advertised.

willey

 

[MANILAD'S]

as you know, the only winner in this is the AMF. why they're not doing anything about it and to all the major bowling ball companies,with out all this people who plays bowling they're profit will goes down as well so better start looking after all this TOURNAMENT ORGANISATIONS ??????????????????????/
I think XPENSE covers every issues you can think off.

 

[Gutter rat]

I think payout ratio might help. As numbers are falling its harder to make any money back in these tournaments. Because the good bowlers are still showing up and the average bowlers are dropping.
Maybe lower the prize money at the top and pay 1 in 2 like the K&K classic does. I think more bowlers will try if they have a 50% of getting money rather than 3:1 or 4:1.

 

[Cam S]

maybe theres something needed to entice the 180 - 190 average bowler to particpate. I think things like win a spot a great ideas as was the idea of having a plate final like i think one of the national tournaments go.

You dont mind paying $170 in the name of experience to bowl in a national event in your own back yard (knk) but to pay that plus air fares plus accomdation is just too much when u know your chances of cutting are slim.

Slightly off subject, i find it hard to believe that South Queensland who seems to have the best tournament scene in the country only has one national ranked tournament for men.

Wouldn't you put the most national tournaments where you have the most bowlers? Look at the enteries for K n K compared to the others. Maybe its time some of the bigger events are moved up here?

 

[luke]

promotion is the problem it needs to be advertised for a couple of months, so people have got time to get cheap flights find accomo save money.. and also if its promoted well in advance you can get the numbers get deposits. so when we get on the plane to go we know in the back of our heads that there is 30 spots of money ups for grabs. thats a bettter felling than going away and getting there and the td goes we are paying to 12 or something little like that which is getting more comon.. and also support those who support the sport..

the payouts need to be revised aswell.. instead of basing a tournament on 90 numbers base it on 65 or 70 for the double ranked events.. and for the single rankings points base it on 55 or 60 atleast thats more realistic..

and we have to encourage lower average bowlers to bowl. they wont bowl simply beacause they know the lanes are to hard and the money isnt there.

also maybe make tournys like they do up north at the end of the tourny they put on a bit of food its great everyone has a chat and has a bear its good and its what bowling should be like

just my thoughts i hope bowling moves forward

 

[CSP]

This is a great post to discuss. And I believe its great to suggest ideas about increasing numbers in the tournaments. I would like to see a tournament players association organised.

The answer to the topic title; I believe the promoting of tournaments could be a little better in the way of customer relations. The tournament director or promoter could call the bowlers and ask would they like to compete in the tournament for that year, or maybe gain a list of names from the previous year's event that would like to compete again and call them months pryor to the event and this can give the organisers an idea of who is bowling. I know some organisers of tournaments already have the calling of the bowlers in place. A tournament database of the contact name, number, email address is an ideal way to chase up entries for the tournaments.

The major events are apart of tenpin bowling history and need to stay on the calendar, but maybe reducing those events to a two day tournament can cut some travelling costs.

The minor events that are held in each state should be held as a one day tournament. The formats short and sweet with a lost cost entry of no more than $120.00 per entry.

The tournament entries have declined due people simply cannot afford to travel, and the average player paying out the expenses and not gaining a return by not cashing. I do not think you are really going to stop the decline by the average player unless they decide to practice/receive coaching to improve their game, but again that can be expensive to do twice a week.
How do you think the elite bowler got to where they are now? 1) Has a coach and 2) practice, practice and practice.

This is where I believe the proprietors should help. Let the average league player that is keen to improve their game to be competitive at tournament level practice for a rate under $3.00 per game between quiet times. Example of times can be before 9.30am every day or Sunday mornings/late evenings. This can enable bowlers to practice 10 games at $30 or less. With the league practice rate at $5.50-$6.00 per game, how are the bowlers expected to improve their game when 3 games cost them close to $20.

Lane conditions should never be an issue. This is where proprietors or managers should help out again. Maybe have one sunday morning where the centre opens at 8am for the league players and charge them cheaply to practice and learn on a tough tournament pattern. Have the session finish at between 9 & 10am before the social play and birthday parties commence.

Apart from the average player not competing due to not gaining a return, I believe the biggest problem is that the living costs in Australia have doubled over the years and people's lives are changing and costing them more money, therefore they cannot afford to compete in tournaments.

I know I'm one bowler that is struggling to compete in the majority of the tournaments due to increased mortgage rates and becoming a father in 2005. Although I love competing in tournaments, family is 1st. I competed in 15-20 tournaments per year before 2005, the last two years since owning a house and raising a child I have only competed in 10 tournaments.

Low cost tournaments and incentives for the 170-190 average players is the way to go.

Cheers,
Christian Purdue

 

[hamster]

Wow here's a thread trying to help and improve OUR sport and has been running for a day for 12 posts and 356 views, Yet we have a thread worth squat to the improvement of tenpin bowling and in 2 days has had 30 replies and over 2460 views.

WE HAVE A PROMBLEM HERE HOUSTON !!!!!!!!!!!

Jas, what is missing is the rest of the bowling community (bowlers,owners and suppliers) getting on board. I believe every state has what SE QLD has with people like yourself, your Mary Flowers and others who get the BALL rolling.( bad pun)

Its support behind these go-getters that needs to improve and that they are in it for the long haul, not as a short term fixa-upper.

I think the ideas are great so far from whats been recieved but its our usual suspects and generally the same things.

I believe we need to think outside the square( a major overhaul) and need more input from the Elites of our game.

Great thread again jas lets hope something comes from it.

hamster

tony hamilton

 

[tixmclaren]

I have been taking a keen interest in this thread being a bowler that is just getting into the tournament scene after having a 16 year lay off from the game, yes a lomg break.

I will be going into a few tournaments over the next few months and will continue to go in a few as money allows because i am under no illussions that if i cash i will have had to bowl upwards of 50 over my average over many games as i am only a 150 average bowler at the moment but i love the competition and that is what drives me to compete.

Just last week i competed in the NSW roll offs for the Darrell Holt restricted challenge and after finishing the rolloff i finished in 8th spot just outside the team but the feeling of being able to compete in this form of the game i felt a great sence of achievement having been able to compete for spots in the NSW team at this level.

This brings me to my point, has anyone thought of running a tournament, either locally or nationally, in relation to having a series of tournaments run similar to that of the sports series in Queensland but with a slight difference where there would be different levels of competition being open as well as restricted bowling and they all play over the same weekend.

In this scenario there would be the top bowlers bowling for as they normally would and there would also be the restricted bowlers bowling for similar prize money against bowlers of a similar ilk to themselves.

In a weekend that includes the tournament you would have good numbers at the centres, a great atmosphere for all bowlers to bowl in and to add to the weekend there could also be coaching clinics maybe before and after the competition for the days of play.

Basically make it a carnival atmosphere to bring in the bowlers and the spectators to ENJOY the game as it is meant to be and make it a family atmosphere but at the same time uphold the rules regulating the competition when play is happening.

I think this would be a win, win for all, would drag more bowlers in and who knows some of the current restrictedd bowlers could be the next big things coming through.

Just my thoughts but it seems to me that bowlers would enjoy the game more if they were in a position to be competitive against bowlers that are at there level and be in a rolling competition where they could be considered for a league table where they would be in line to win and be named the best restricted bowler similar to the points table used for the open tournaments already being run in the tournaments being run in Queensland, i know i would.

Michael Mclaren
tickets for short lol

 

[Little Weed]

This brings me to my point, has anyone thought of running a tournament, either locally or nationally, in relation to having a series of tournaments run similar to that of the sports series in Queensland but with a slight difference where there would be different levels of competition being open as well as restricted bowling and they all play over the same weekend.

Great to get somebody putting some idea forward Tix, and while I agree that a NSW tournament run along the lines of Mary Flower's Twin Tour in Brisbane would be a very worthwhile thing to have here, a problem could be that most of the competitive bowlers are involved in either Pennants, Bowl Sydney Tournament or Inter-District every Saturday afternoon. Introducing another tournament on the weekends would most likely not attract the new participants, rather it would pull some bowlers away from those other tournaments and cause problems. The tournaments I mentioned cover all bases in regards to high and lower average bowlers. As well as that, we have senior tournaments once a month, St Leonards Club also (which is popular with the lower average bowlers), and various centre travelling leagues as well.
I say again that I believe the problems are not lack of tournaments, but lack of communication and marketing.
Tix, I have seen you around at tournaments recently, either watching or bowling, and you seem to be able to find out what is going on. Perhaps you could come up with some ideas on how to encourage new bowlers to get involved, and where to look for information. That would be a great help.
Josie Adams

 

[jason_doust]

Great thread Jason!

It's the same old two problems that stop me from playing in more events. Time and money.

Travel costs are much more manageable when you can budget and save for them. (Good point Luke!) Some of us have mortgages. It's the same for organising your schedule. Right now, there's a burst of activity in NSW/ACT. Some of the NSW tournaments are losing entries because of ACT Rachuig Team roll-offs. There's a really good calendar function right here on Totalbowling, that nobody seems to use very much. HELL-LO!

Perhaps TBA and Totalbowling could mirror this calendar function?

Re: Promotion - Yes, it's a big issue. Lots of events don't have entry forms, therefore losing anyone without Internet access. Those that do, generally put them out about four to six weeks in advance. Too late IMHO. Double it to two to three months.

As for "hard lane conditions", sorry. It's the stupidly easy house shots that are to blame. After coming back after 12 years, with a few exceptions, most tournament shots are no harder than league shots used to be. Get out and practice guys. Better still, seek out a good coach. Even better, lobby your manager for a steady toughening of the house shot over the next 12 months. Bowling has catered to those who want their egos stroked for too long and it has done the game the opposite of good.

Which leads me to practice rates, Chris Purdue has hit the nail on the head. An off peak practice rate would get people in the doors of centres on Sunday mornings. How about timed bowling with no scores? Just make shots for a couple of hours. Like tournaments, the off peak rate would need some promotion and policing against abuse. Alternately, a practice card that you purchase for say, $500 that lets you play a lot when it's quiet. It's only fair that if you want commitment from your centre manager, that (s)he can ask for some back.

To encourage new bowlers to participate in tournaments, Stephen Cowland is already getting his sports series off the ground in NSW. Great experience at an affordable price. Usually has a sausage sizzle at the end, so newbies can pick people's brains there too! SE QLD has the Pearson Automotive Sports Series. Similar deal. Other states can do it too!

If I think of anything else, I'll annoy y'all with it. It's Sunday morning. I'm off to practice.

 

[bathurst tenpin bowl]

HI Jason
At Bathurst Tenpin Bowl we offer 1 hour of bowling for our league bowlers for $15.00 per adult and $13.00 for a junior 1 to a pair of lanes any time as long as we have the lanes and we are lucky to have 2 people use it a week
cheers Julie

 

[GeorgeF]

I dont think we are promoting our events properly. I'd hate to see where we would be without the internet or totalbowling.

Advertising events is the first priority that needs to be addressed. With cost of flights forever increasing and the more notice we have on events the better. Calendars are great, if the event actually goes ahead and if bowlers know what they are travelling to (ie. entry forms need to be out early)

Attracting more bowlers is also a huge task. I was in Dandenong on Thursday night watching a doubles league and I saw a heap of guys who threw the ball awesome and scored accordingly. When I asked Mac why they didnt bowl he said they dont want to.....

Do these guys know the Australian Open is on in 2 weeks? Has anyone given them an entry form? Why doesnt Dandenong run a have a spot tournament?

As for the criticism for AMF, I have to stick up for them in this instance, I'm not sure if people add up entries received v payout but I can tell you SA Cup and Canberra AMF collected no linage and paid out more than the entries received!

Pearson Automotive has got one of the best tournament circuits running in Queensland that I've ever bowled in. The atmosphere, the social interaction after bowling, it goes a long way to making the event something to remember. Thank Jase!

I don't have the answer but we all need to do our bit.

 

[granat]

I can only speak from personal experience. Bowled a few of the national tournaments a few years ago and thoroughly loved it although I was never really competitive.
I don't bowl too many tournaments now and it's purely a money issue. I have never entered a tournament with a business view of where I need to finish to break even. I bowled in tournaments for the sake of bowling in tournaments. I enjoy the competition, the atmosphere and the experience but it is an expensive extravagance.
It doesn't matter whether we are talking entry fees, travel expenses or constant updating of equipment to stay competitive, the whole package is just too much and I only have a limited amount of expendable cash available, especially when there are two of us that bowl.

I love to bowl representative team events so the focus of my bowling dollar will be to trial for teams such as Rachuig, Emerson Shield, East Coast Challenge and Country Cup.

I would love to get back into the tournament scene again but realistically it's a couple of years away

Graeme

 

[RobbieB]

While I was still living in Brissy, Rick Carlos and myself organised a 6-month league in conjunction with the management at Richlands where the prize fund was an entry into the Western Open. Everyone who bowled the league got a paid entry into the tourney, and Rick and I helped those who wanted it with their game. The centre chipped in with a good game rate (the league was on late on a Tuesday IIRC) and the tourney ended up with 14 extra entries, all fully paid and from the 170-180 average bracket. Most of the bowlers improved, and a couple actually cashed in the event.

If such a league was run on the tournament pattern the bowlers get better and know what to expect at the event. At say $4 a game, then a 24 week season at $20 per week gets $180 per bowler towards an entry into the areas showcase event. Gotta be cheaper for AMF to offer $4 a game off peak than shovel money into open events. In the capital cities, 10 or 15 bowlers from half a dozen centres = 60 to 90 extra entries from exactly the group we need to encourage to bowl for the tournament scene to get healthy again. This should be doable.

You WILL NOT maintain a healthy tournament scene relying on people who have to fly in. Big numbers of locals are a must. This will increase the size of the field, which means bigger prizefund, making it more attractive to fly in. Positive feedback is a good thing.

Cheers, Robbie.