Tournament Formats

[xpense]

When choosing to bowl in tournaments what do you look for?

Payouts, return for your money, how many positions, value for money, practice sessions, game rates.

Would you prefer higher payouts - less positions
or
lower payouts more positions

How about Handicap VS scratch?

Would you like both divisions, would you like these in 1 event, or seperate events.

Do you want finals, or just 1st past the post qualifying style formats.

QLD has a great tour that gets around 100 entries per event.

They have 4 divisions, run at the same time. Male & Female, and Handicap & scratch. (Handicap is based on 100% of 200, with negative handicap for the bowlers over 200)

You can win money in both Handicap & scratch at each event, and your average is re-graded after each event, and done by your overall average from each event, including you entering average. The payouts are not high, but the entry fees are under $100 per event, and pay between 1 in 3 & 1 in 6.

This could be a series we could be a series we could leverage some idea's from and get some events together for all bowlers to be able to compete in throughout the year, regardless off average, age or gender.

You can choose multiple options on the poll.

If finals were to be included, what are the thoughts of paying to bowl in the finals?

Feedback is appreciated, as you know we are always trying to find ways to give all bowlers the chance to compete in tournaments, and give everyone a chance to compete at thier own level.

Thanks Lance Dyer

 

[Gary]

Gary, I have sent info re Twin Tour to almost every State - the same results keep coming back - scratch bowling is the ULTIMATE !!!! WE WANT BIG $$$$$$$$$$$. Our major focus is on the handicap bowlers - Men have a maximum handicap of 35 and the Ladies have a maximum handicap of 45.....separate divisions - over 200 average and you are in the MINUS CLUB (minus handicap!) - to me, this is encouraging the 'not quite elite!!' bowlers to compete and we get great support from the scratch and tournament bowlers - THEY are not happy with minus handicaps but it has not deterred them from continuing to bowl - and after all, THEY DO get a discount on membership and a packet of Smarties!!!!!

The handicap payout is the major payout and the scratch division is very little but you can cash in both......and bowlers WILL support a tournament with $70 for 10 games and a $275 first place - however, be warned that it takes many years to build up the integrity and network to get the mindset of most bowlers changed.....the locals are WELL-TRAINED, supportive and are our best sponsors up here !!!!! The Powder Puff Tour for the ladies only, has been running since the early 90's on this format and the boys wanted part of this format. Word of mouth is the best encouragement and we have great $$$ sponsors also (including Pearson Automotive as our major sponsor and the bowling centres themselves with great game charges!)

All the people I have sent the info. to say the same thing - Oh, we will swap the payout system and make the Scratch division the major prize fund.......

There are enough tourns. around for the Open bowlers surely, and maybe 10 games on different conditions, with different bowlers would greatly improve anyone's bowling - trust me, Gary, it does not make any difference to the competitiveness of any of the bowlers. As the subject of 'Why do I bowl?' is a forum topic at the moment - the Twin Tour motto is 'The Twin Tour is for bowlers who love to bowl' and I think the support from the locals and not-so-locals would bear this out.......

The Twin Tour forum should give you any info. you need to cost the tour and give you Prize Fund details......we have increased the Prize Funds with the more than expected numbers in 2006 also!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The numbers in the Vic 150 in the handicap division plus the scratch division entries are an example of how to encourage more bowlers - numbers are important when negotiating game charges in the centres and sponsorship !

GOOD LUCK
FLOWER

Very interesting ( from QLD forum )

Gary........................................

 

[xpense]

Gary,
This is what l was basing my questions on - The Twin Tour.

At the moment l have looked into the format, and we would really struggle to offer the money that the twin tour does due to very little sponsorship available for a new series. It takes time to develop the relationships with sponsors and we need to show that bowlers are willing to support the series.

I would love to think that we could get something along the same lines as the twin tour running in Victoria. However the poll is showing that people want finals, and the twin tour does not have these, and they take huge dollars from the overall prizefund. Everygame bowled, is less money in the prizefund.

We could have finals, but charge a fee to compete in it......

I think that there is no reason why we could not have a series in which we had both Handicap & scratch on the same day.

I have looked at a prizefund based on $95, 10 games, 1 in 3 payout for all 4 divisions. Male, Female, Handicap & Scratch. The money is not great. I think top 4 in each division get thier money back, or more, and last in the cash gets $20 bucks, but that means 10 games for $75, which is not bad really. Also you are able to win in both scratch & handicap, meaning you could get 2 payouts from the 1 event. (Above is based on 60 men & 30 women)

If you work out the above that would mean in the men, we would pay out 20 positions in both Handicap & Scratch - that really means overall a payout of 2 in 3 (this also is the same in the Ladies (10 & 10 = 20 from 30)

If you make it you can only win in one division, that would mean you would have to cap the payout in the scratch or handicap divisions, and then put everyone else into the other to make it fair.

I feel that the numbers in QLD's tour and the very high numbers at the Vic 150 handicap division show that we need something to cover all bowlers, and this gives the open bowlers something as they can just go for the scratch against each other, and even add some skins / pots / brackets if they wish and gives the lower average bowlers the chance to mix it with the open bowlers, and having the chance to get something from it.

I will add an attachment when l get home to show some possible payout options available.

 

[xpense]

Some food for thought.
Some food for thought.
Payout 1 in 3 in both mens & ladies / Handicap & Scratch divisions

 10 Games Qualifying
 No finals
 Scratch / Handicap (100% of 200)
 Mens & Ladies divisions
 Based on 60 Men & 30 Ladies
 $110 entry fee
 Able to win in both Handicap & Scratch
 Overall a 2 in 3 payout

men handicap
1st $250.00
2nd $220.00
3rd $160.00
4th $140.00
5th $120.00
6th $110.00
7th $100.00
8th $90.00
9th $80.00
10th $70.00
11th $40.00
12th $40.00
13th $40.00
14th $40.00
15th $30.00
16th $30.00
17th $30.00
18th $20.00
19th $20.00
20th $20.00
men scratch
1st $250.00
2nd $220.00
3rd $160.00
4th $140.00
5th $120.00
6th $110.00
7th $100.00
8th $90.00
9th $80.00
10th $70.00
11th $40.00
12th $40.00
13th $40.00
14th $40.00
15th $30.00
16th $30.00
17th $30.00
18th $20.00
19th $20.00
20th $20.00
women handicap
1st $175.00
2nd $150.00
3rd $125.00
4th $100.00
5th $70.00
6th $60.00
7th $50.00
8th $40.00
9th $30.00
10th $20.00
women scratch
1st $175.00
2nd $150.00
3rd $125.00
4th $100.00
5th $70.00
6th $60.00
7th $50.00
8th $40.00
9th $30.00
10th $20.00

This is more about giving everyone a chance to bowl in events, on a regular basis, and have some fun, while competing against other people that just want to bowl.
I am sure the scratch guys can add some spice, with skins, brackets and pot games on the day. Hey you never know, you may just be to busy trying to get some cash back.
The averages for handicap could be re-done after every event, for the handicaps allowing everyone a chance at money at every event, if the bowl well.

 

[tonx]

I understand its food for thought, however based on that payout, and adding petrol costs to the centre (whereever that may be) I would not bother with that tournament. For the scratch bowler, there is no chance for them to win anything within the handicap section, and the cost of $110 (plus petrol, plus wear and tear on gear, plus buying at the canteen etc etc.... to only win $250, with 60 entries. Even if I managed to win the tournament, it just doesnt look good value.

perhaps looking at the Vic-150 format, and doing something with that in mind may come out more value. It needs less games, with some sort of finals format, even if it cuts to the top 10 after 8.

This is just honest feedback, nothing more.

 

[Backup King]

Tonx

I think lance (correct if I'm incorrect) is trying to aim at the market of bowlers that around the 180-195 mark to give this guys a go who do not have the ability or funds to compete in the all the Majors where the pay outs are good. I know of quite a few bowlers that would give this a go just so the can see where the sit in the bowling world before spending mega $$$$ on majors. I personal think this is an untaped market and hopeful need this type of tourny to leed into the majors not just your local house tourny and then into the majors. Enough Crap from me.

 

[tonx]

Tonx
I think lance (correct if I'm incorrect) is trying to aim at the market of bowlers that around the 180-195 mark to give this guys a go who do not have the ability or funds to compete in the all the Majors where the pay outs are good. I know of quite a few bowlers that would give this a go just so the can see where the sit in the bowling world before spending mega $$$$ on majors. I personal think this is an untaped market and hopeful need this type of tourny to leed into the majors not just your local house tourny and then into the majors. Enough Crap from me.

Its a great point Mr Wrongside

I see the viewpoint as a good idea, however the format needs work, or a sponsor needs to be found. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to look at those figures, and work out that bowling those sort of tournaments isnt of good value.

I personally think these bowlers need to be bowling with or against the next level, to be able to reach the next level. We are all a product of our environment, and without seeing the next level, how are we to work towards it. Only having 6 years of bowling behind me, yet having experience at all levels of the 'scene', I can see the view of 120 average bowlers (yep, that wasnt too long ago ), as well as 230 average bowlers quite clearly.

Perhaps if we look at a couple of mixed tournaments, adult juniors, or handicap/scratch entries, this is not only going to give experience to the lower average (150-190) bowlers, but perhaps it will give the prize fund some chance in being percieved as better value. Top 10 teams at least getting their money back looks a hell of alot better than finishing top 10, and losing 50-70bucks, especially with 60 entries!

Speaking on behalf of myself, its a damn hard slog working your way up from a 150 average bowler to someone that is able to compete at the top(ish) level. Its something that cost me a huge amount of money (specially working at maccas during the junior stage!) and I would have appreciated these types of tournaments if I could see any value in them! Imagine being a 150 average bowler, being paired with one of the games greats! (like Vic 150 format) I could think of nothing better!

If the top then wants to put more funds into the kitty during the tournament (aka Lindz's walking pot games) then they can, however the more the merrier, so there has to be incentive from the get go!

Just honest feedback again!

 

[xpense]

Look just really looking at something that will get people to events.

The Twin tour gets well over the 100 mark for almost all events, and is supported by both handicap and open bowlers. Trust me about the people that bowl, and Scratch bowlers do get money on a regular basis in the handicap section of the twin tour. The last event, the same bowler won both Scratch & Handicap if my memory serves me correct.

Every game that you add to the format, means less in the prizefund. Less prizefund means lower payouts, less people getting something. Lets be real, no one is ever going to make money from bowling the small events. Only the Majors these days, and you still need to be high in the cut to get good money.

The idea around this is as Rod said, something for those bowlers who feel they are not at the right level yet for the majors, but would like something to compete in.

I have had a PM saying why not just a Handicap & Scratch division - this is also possible, and no reason why it could not be done.

All the bowlers keep saying they want lower cost entry fees, but then they want big returns, and they want a high number of people of people getting a high return. Guess what not possible any more..... Look at it for what it is worth. The above gibes the potential if numbers are received for 60 out of 90 bowlers to get something back. Alright if it is only $20 for last place in the cash, you have still had 8 games practice in tournament atmosphere, which is priceless these days.

I am more than happy to listen to food for thought, but l think people need to realise we are now in a very differant time where bowling is concerned in the way of sponsors, game rates, and the support of the actual bowlers, turning up to these events. We need to try and find something that people are happy to turn up and have a go at.

I urge everyone to look at the payouts for the Twin Tour and see if you can answer me this, where is the differance from what they are ofering and what is on offer here. It is a case of people need to look at it and go you know what, value for money is the competition l will get, the practice l will get in the environment, the chance to bowl with the higher level bowlers in a qualifying format.

 

[xpense]

if you would like to see the twin tour brochure here it is.

Please note they have great sponsors in QLD, and these are all bowlers who have small business and are happy to support the industry.

The QLD tour is for bowlers who wish to bowl, and it is used by the scratch bowlers as practice, and the handicap bowlers to improve thier games.

 

[xpense]

OK another option.

$120 entry fee
Based on 60 bowlers
8 Games qualifying
top 8 from Handicap & scratch
Doubles format for the final
7 games of matchplay
$50 fee for the finals

Handicap
1st $300.00
2nd $250.00
3rd $225.00
4th $200.00
5th $195.00
6th $190.00
7th $185.00
8th $180.00
9th $175.00
10th $170.00
11th $130.00
12th $120.00


Scratch
1st $300.00
2nd $250.00
3rd $225.00
4th $200.00
5th $195.00
6th $190.00
7th $185.00
8th $180.00
9th $175.00
10th $170.00
11th $130.00
12th $120.00

But guess what we once again have lower payouts, due to the number of places and having 2 prizefunds / Scratch & Handicap.

It is very easy to have higher prizefunds when you are spreading the entire prizefund over 1 payout, but when it is over 2, it drops the amounts very quickly.

But with this you gte your money back for making the finals, including the extra $50.

 

[Mac Attack]

Hi Lance,

Your poll & thread fail to mention the number of games to be bowled in Tournaments.

I am in favour of a smaller number of games to qualify and perhaps a larger number of finalists with a stepladder knockout series to determine an overall winner.

Why is it that most tournaments are drawn out to 10 or more games to qualify, and then a further 15 games of matchplay the next day? Is this purely to cater for the more seasoned elite bowlers?

I believe that more people would try to qualify at a reduced cost for less games. The AO at Sunshine was a great example of a format that worked well.

The more the amount of games to qualify at any one time (say 10 or 15), the easier it is for those seasoned bowlers to get ahead of the pack to dominate. Less games to qualify (say over 5 games) would even the field of most scratch bowlers, and make these tournaments a lot more appealing to the bowlers.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers
Michael

 

[The Spanner]

Why dont you guys try and start with a straight copy of the Twin Tour ... payouts and all?

As for attracting quality bowlers to these tournaments, well .... 11 of the 14 2006 SQ Rachuig reps are regular bowlers on the Twin Tour. I think that is enough said.

Bowlers generally just want to bowl. Does it all come down to the prize fund?
The twin tour is a handicap tour with the scratch thrown in. Thats why the scratch side of it is lower paid. Live with it.

And yep, the last winner on the Twin Tour won both H'cap and Scratch.

The best thing you guys could do down there is fly Mary Flower down to Victoria, put her up at a nice hotel like the Casino, sit her down and shout her beers and then pick her brain for a few hours. (Now she's gonna kill me).

The sponsors get behind the tour because they all bowl in it and love it. Donations like laptops and stuff all count and are rewarded with "sponsorship status". It's not all in cash.

It's also about bowlers getting other bowlers involved, and telling them that these tournaments are on. Bring someone along ... I think I've brought 4 or 5 new faces to the Twin Tour myself. Word of mouth is a great advertisment. Comments on here about the lack of 'value' will only hurt numbers, even if they are only being 'honest'.

It's a great series for the 165+ avg bowler. Give it a go before you try to change it. Mary has been running this for a while now ... she knows what works and what doesn't.

You've got to start somewhere.

Regards

Peter Martin.

 

[xpense]

Hey Peter,

Thanks for the input. Fully agree with you. For some reason everyone here in Victoria seems to be hung up on Prizefund payouts, rather than just realising that it is all about having fun, and bowling. Have sent Mary a couple of PM's & emails, and she has been fantastic with advice.

 

[xpense]

Hi Michael,

The GP tour that Patrick is running through AMF this year is just what you have mentioned.

5 games qualifying, top 14 into the finals, plus 2 from a desperado sqaud.

$60 entry fee, multiple entries allowed. The next event is at Frankston in May. Qualifying opens on May 1st, and the entry forms will be out very soon for this event.

Once again though this only caters for the scratch bowlers.

We are looking at something that represents the general tournaments around, to help get people used to the methods, and what they need to achieve, while competing with the open bowlers.

I am happy to add the ideas to the list though.

Really all l want is a tournament circuit that caters for all, is affordable, and something that everyone has a good time bowling in. I would love masssive prizefunds, low entries, high payout numbers just like everyone else, but l am of the belief that until the sport has some genuine status as a sport, and business' see this as a chance to generate revenue, this will not happen, and the bowlers will need to prop up the prizefund until such a time as sponsors are readily available.

As Peter has said, we need to start somewhere, and that is what we are trying to find out here, what will encourage the masses to compete, rather than the just the elite.

 

[Gary]

Why dont you guys try and start with a straight copy of the Twin Tour ... payouts and all?

That would be a great start if i can bowl have fun and get my money back or even a bit of it i'm happy or even make some
It's not all about the 200 + bowler's we ( 180-195 bowler's ) have alway's been the one's to make up the prize fund in comp's and knowing we will only may-be get a small return this format in QLD GET'S OVER 100+ BOWLER'S,last one in in QLD had 140+.
Be fair to all over time you get the number's...........................................

Gary..........................................................................

 

[Vaughnn]

Lance should be congratulated by everyone at the amount of effort he has put into trying to make everyone a winner.

I for one would bowl in a handicap event.

Perhaps additionally for those wanting to cash in these things something could be set up in the way of additional pots, skins, etc.
I bowl around a 170 average, although I can throw the occassional 200.

The key to these "series" needs to be to get the bowlers on board, not just those you always see bowling in the scratch tournaments, but some of those just off the pace that would otherwise just be donating to the payout pool. Once you have the bowlers, the sponsers will be easier to attract.

The cost is maybe one key, many have mentioned, and Lance has reiterated many times. Need to cap the amount the series is willing to pay for games at any centre. Considering you are paying between four and five thousand on game fee's, and the centre is likely to also get sales through their caffeteria, the series should having some "buying" power.
Keep the price for bowlers at $100 or less (even $99), as $100+ will be one thing that scares away bowlers.

Lastly, see if you can get Vic Tenpins, CTBAM and MTBA all to support it, AND help publicise it. Make entry forms downloadable, so there are less overhead costs.

WELL DONE - Lance, you really should be congratulated for your efforts.

Cheers,

Vaughnn

 

[xpense]

Thanks Vaughnn,

Just trying to get something for the bowlers to bowl in. I am more than happy to put my hand up and say guess what, l am in this for myself as well. Not in the way of making money from it, but just for the competition aspect. I love to bowl (sometime wonder why) and tournaments are a great chance for me to test my mental ability (needs some work let me tell you) on reading the lane changes, making the adjustments, and just being able to keep my focus on what l am doing and not getting distracted which keeps happening these days.

Truthfully l do not care what goes ahead, l just want something, but l dont want to turn up to events based on 60 bowlers, and only have 20 turn up, and then feel l wasted my time. I want big numbers, it is more challenging, and l could not care less if l am giving away pins, it is the challenge l want.

Lets try and get something running, then we can play around with it, once we have a core group of people competing at each tournament.

Centres at the moment are not really willing to bargain the prices. But once you can show numbers on a regular basis then you have the chance to push for these things. You have to remember most centres charge prices in excess of the rate we would get, and thus less games easily equal the amount we give them, and are less hassle as well.

 

[Fr33ze]

Top effort Lance, there good comments here, i personnally feel as a 180-190 average bowler, it is tough to get up to scratch and stay there, so a tourny that caters for both would bring in more entrants, 2 divisions would work, set the H/Cap at 35 accross the board, the numbers word go up, i know from my point of view as i've tried over the last couple of years to bowl with the scratch bowlers in these tournies and i'm just out of reach to be able to cash in the top list, it does get you thinking that you are wasting your money, but also to have the chance to bowl with some of the best in our country is just an awesome feeling. I know one day i'll get there, with hard work lots of practice, some coaching and most important experience in Tournaments.

If Scratch Bowlers want bigger prize funds, then you need to increase the entrants and to do that people like the 180-190 average bowlers would have a shot if they were able in some way to Cash themselves. I don't have a problem with paying $100 to enter a tourny if i was able to cash and at least recoop my entry fee. This would also increase the interest if it continued, thus the door opens up for sponsors.


My two cents worth.


Peter

 

[Vaughnn]

Another thought on bowlers making more cash.

An option to pay more when you put in an entry, and this goes in as skins / pots. Hopefully this makes everyone a winner

 

[Sinski]

This sounds like a good idea and something I would think about joining as my average is rising and are looking for something more of a challenge and also get a chance to bowl at different centres and conditions.