Move for a coalition

[Buzzer]

How many of you bowlers would like to see the coalition of tenpin bowling organisations in Australia

IE MTBA and CTBAM for Victoria. (not sure on the other states)

without taking away anything from the hard working people of these organisation just wondering what other peoples views are on the segragation these two organisations have in league awards and state competitions as i do not see a way for both organisations to become one and everyone can still keep their postions on a bigger committe devoted to the bowlers.(obviously will take some manouvering of titles - but definately could keep all as they are all working for no money - please correct me on that anyone as i don't think any one is paid for these services)

would it not be for the better of the sport to have one governing body control all state and league avenues of the game.

or do you think as a recreational sport we already have the right formula in place and should have more split organisations or keep it the same.

I would like to make it clear from the beginning that I am not out to critisize or bitchslap any organisations and am definately 100% down the middle on this one. I hold no priority over one organisation to the next as I wish to see them unite.

I have a few ideas to throw at you such as state team layouts. I don't see why we can't have the same amount of state team rep tournaments under the same banner. so no tournaments will be sacrificed if anyone is concerned over that. if you see any problems arrise from uniting lets discuss them first to see if they can be resolved before any arguments or nay sayers take hold. However I will wait until some people get the ball rolling on this one as it was not too appreciated in another thread.

come on guys lets get some serious developments happening. I do ask however if you have nothing productive to say and you are only going to critisize these organisations your feedback is not welcome.

Regards

Buzzer (AKA Mark Dodds) for those of you who don't know me.!!!!!!

 

[jedi_bowler]

You beat me to it buzzer! I was going to start a similar post.
Anyway I am with you 100%.
Now in what I say I am ONLY speaking about Victoria I have no idea how other states work. To start with I think the president of the TBA, CTBAM and MTBA need to come together for a discussion about Unification and the building of one strong body. This may mean some positions may have to be sacrificed for the greater good but I am sure new jobs and positions for people already serving on the committees can be created. Then after this process has been sorted out the new strong body can be formed. Then I think a survey must be done of Tournaments and Leagues to see what is troubling bowlers about the sport and what is good about it, also bowlers could make suggestions about improving the sport. After this is done the committee could meet and discuss there feeling and concerns and look at what comes out of the surveys. Then possibly hold a forum where bowlers could join the committee in a round table discussion about ideas and things to do.
I could go on but this is a start.

People shouldn't look at this as a negative forum topic. Out in the big bad world Companies restructure the way they run on a regular basis to help grow the company and help serve there clients better. It also helps to keep a fresh outlook and new ideas flowing.
And I think bowling is long overdue.

So lets get bowling in Victoria going and start setting an example for other states to follow.

Daniel (Frosty)
Forest Hill
Melbourne
Victoria
Australia
Earth
Milky Way

 

[Tam]

I think that in some indirect way there is a coalition that is currently in place through the TBA. Take your 'little' associations the MTBA and CTBAM these to minor organisations pay a fee to the TBA and follow all TBA Rules. Does this not make them a coalition of some shape or form? The thing that makes these small Associations work affectively is because of just that they are small. It may sound silly that in order to bowl in certain leagues/ tourniments you need to be a sanctioned member of the Association so instead of paying one membership fee a year some people are forced to pay 2 or more sanctions a year. There is always going to be a debate between CTBAM and MTBA and this debate has been going on for years back in the day of the ATBSO where in order to bowl shield you had to purchase an ATBSO Sanction. These are the same processes that take place now with your state teams. I dont think it is wrong for each orginisation within the states have a state challange and in away by removing 2 branches and having one big branch wouldnt that take away the meaning and what these state teams represent. When you represent your state it is always through an organisation and by taking that away it takes away the history involved as many of these state challanges have been in place before you or i were even born.

The process may look and seem simple but there are i dont think this is as black and white as alot of us hope it could/would be.


Tamara Darmenia
(Tam)

 

[Buzzer]

at a national level there is a coalition but not at a state level.

having separate sanctions, I thought, would have made made that a dead give away.

I understand both organisations look up to the TBA for guidance. And in no direct way are the CTBAM or MTBA small organisations - they are the next level down from the national body. how can they be classed as little groups. I find this comment undermines both organisations importance and role that they play in the whole scheme of things.

I know it is a difficult discussion and am quite well aware of the history between the two organisations I never once claimed this was going to be easy nor said it was just a simple process. that is why we are in this forum to get peoples understanding on what they think is happening because thats our biggest hurdle. there are so many people out there that don't know why they follow the organisation their with and why there has to be others to choose from. I even understand the bowlers of old and their loyalty to these organisations but what about the bowlers of new. it must be really confusing and answers really are not there for them. We need to get popularity back into bowling - we obviously have a strong following with the addicts we already have. but bowling is not growing and I fear this to be partly due to confusion on and around this very subject.

 

[Tam]

Mark i completely understand where your coming from as have only ever been sanctioned by the MTBA i would not know the first thing about CTBAM, what it stands for as opposed to the MTBA. Maybe thats the first discussion should be depicting what the MTBA and CTBAM has to offer a sanctioned bowler and depict any differences for all i know they could be ran just the same and not know it...

 

[Resurrection]

i agree 100%, this is one of the main reasons as I have said in previous posts in other topics why our sport is only just treading water instead of moving forward. We need all sanctioning bodies to join together as one for many reasons:

1. To be recognised by the the state sporting commision ( at this current point in time the Victorian sporting commision believes we have less than 1500 registered members in this state ) but we all know different.

2. Who really wants to have badges or awards from 2-3 different organisations.

3. Tournaments can be run more efficiently

4. and Lastly when it all comes down to it, it is the bowlers game not the sanctioning bodies', without us they would not be required.

There is one stumbling block, especially in this state, both the MTBA and the CTBAM to put it mildly have a vendetta or objection to the way the TBA runs bowling in this country so the victorian branch of the TBA ( Vic Tenpins ) doesn't get the registered bowlers required for our rightly entitled funding from the government as these sanctioning bodies won't turn over the required info to Vic Tenpins so it can be forwarded to the states sporting commision. So until this happens we will remain going backwards.

Vic Tenpins needs to run all the tournaments in this state so it can receive the required income for more funding from the government.

Category 1 8000 member and 800,000 in income

Category 2 1500-8000 members and 100,000 in income

Category 3 less than 1500 members and less than 100,000 in income

We currently get Category 3 funding yet in victoria we would have at least 20,000 members and if 1 sanctioning body took control of competitive bowling in this state they could possibly push the income up over the 100,000 mark.

We as bowlers have the power to chose how we wish the improve our sport, not the centres or the sanctioning bodies, we do. If we don't like the way it is setup we can take our money elsewhere, its as simple as that.

Matthew Lambrick

 

[Sumo]

Hi Buzz
Hope this thread remains positive and gets peoples interest.
Initially we need to step back a little bit and think about the State situation.

TBA Vic needs to work with a single Melbourne organisation and the many country associations (Bendigo, Ballarat, Geelong, Mildura, Shep, Horsham etc etc). The country side is set up, I believe.

But we have two Melbourne associations serving bowlers as well as TBA servicing some leagues directly. This is a duplication of effort from the many volunteers and is sheer stupidity. I am sure that all the volunteers of each association are good decent people trying to do their best for bowling. Most will have the best of motives for doing so.

It all goes back a long time ago when the original split in the Melbourne region happened more than 25 years ago, when the ATBC was the national body. Person A couldn't/wouldn't work with person B and for many reasons the Associations split. I was a CTBAM rep way back then and know how bitterly some people felt about the situation, BUT that part is history and should remain in the past.

I have long thought that we needed to bring all the Committee members of the CTBAM and the MTBA together in one room with the TBA Vic representative. Ask them all candidly, "Is there anyone in the meeting that you could not work with?" If that was a yes, exclude them both from the meeting and ask the next person the same question, until you end up with a small core of people who represent both Associations and WILL WORK TOGETHER. From this group you can form a new Association to represent all Melbourne League Bowlers, taking over the responsibilities of both the CTBAM and the MTBA. Then when you have the City Championships, there will be one and only one City Champs.

Still run Rachuig, still run DeVeer, Still run East Coast but aim these comps at different parts of the Overall bowling group. In my view Rachuig will always be the main State team for Open Bowlers. Every other State team is important, but secondary to Rachuig.

Don't guess it will happen and sometimes restructuring to refocus and unify a company or an association will only splinter some groups away from the main.

What it probably needs is a single strong personality to bring it altogether, but who isn't trying to build a personal empire. Nelson Mandela was excellent as a President to unify South Africa as a nation, but no empire builder, because as soon as his job was done he stepped down. Who can do the same for Bowling in Melbourne? (Sorry that the analogy seems a bit off beam but I couldn't think of something more relevant)

Sumo
Peter Wills

 

[chucker]

who could do the same you ask why not two of the greats bowlers of melbourne cara or trotts? i am sure all parties would be willing to listen to these two.maybe if anyone from either of the committees you are talking about could add some insight into how willing they would be to at least talking about this issue then we would know whether a issue like this is even worth talking about?just leave the state teams as they are no one team is more important than the other and you will need people from both sides to make sure these events are not given preference over the other.this whole issue seems to be similar to the seniors where they have two lots of nationals dont you think because neither side is willing to give in,seems to me that it is the older people who seem to have a problem with change!just my view or else seniors would clearly have already changed as international is to over 50's!

 

[Tam]

Yeah but lack of knowledge comes into it as well. How many everyday league bowlers are out there that no hardly anything about the association they are sanctioned with or only know of one association within Melbourne. What about the leagues that are not sanctioned at all??? Its all about freedom of choice is it not?? As previously stated i have no idea of what CTBAM represents and as an association what it has to offer its sanctioned bowlers. I only know about the MTBA, an association i have been a member with for the past 10 years.

You also have Tenpin Australia who run and direct the East Coast Challange cup as well. Does that mean they should fold and become part of TBA??? Victoria is not the only state that this is occurring it is national.

 

[jockey]

The fact that there are two different sanctioning bodies in Melbourne (MTBA, CTBAM) is not simply because of personalities, but of a belief funds were not being directed equitably to service the bowlers.

I don't see a problem with having CTBAM and MTBA in coexistence as it provides an extra level of protection for bowlers and also provides variety as different people have different ideas.

The fact both run their own championships is not surprising and I think is a good thing as it provides more opportunities for bowlers to bowl in a competitve event at their own level. What should be kept in mind is that TBA have not attempted to run any sort of similar event for those who have chosen to sanction directly through bowling centres. Thus if there was no MTBA or CTBAM would we have any Championships to bowl in at all? TBA is not there to run bowling events but to administer the sport. Mmmmm I wonder!

I do say this much, that the provision of two much power or control to any group or individual is fraught with danger and one should be very wary before making decisions that can do this. One only has to think of the not to recent demise of the ATBC for a good example. John Howard's current attitude to industrial relations policy is another one.

There are obviously some issues that need addressing, like having to have two cards to be able to bowl in events run by both organisations to name one.

Cooperation already exists between the two organisations as they both have representatives on the Victorian Tenpin Bowling Committee (VTBC) that run Rachuig, Daveer and organize the state bowling calendar.

Having a choice or duplication should never be frowned upon but having no choice should be avoided at all cost.

 

[xpense]

The fact both run their own championships is not surprising and I think is a good thing as it provides more opportunities for bowlers to bowl in a competitve event at their own level. What should be kept in mind is that TBA have not attempted to run any sort of similar event for those who have chosen to sanction directly through bowling centres. Thus if there was no MTBA or CTBAM would we have any Championships to bowl in at all?

Jockey,

Question for you.....about this statement.....The state champs are not run by either assoctiation are they. Are they not run by Vic Tenpins, the Victorian part of the TBA. Would these champs not still be run if all bowlers were members of TBA only, and not the CTBAM, MTBA or TBA directly?

I can see where all bowlers are coming from in relation to this topic, and do not see any reason why 1 Melbourne based body can not exist. Take the best from both the CTBAM & MTBA & TBA (dont forget not melbourne bowlers are registered with these 2 associations, some are members with the TBA only through the centres) and use this to make the Melbourne assoc. Rachuig, De Veer, Pres Shield, East Coast can all still run by this group, but bowling will be the winner overall.

We need to improve the way bowling is seen by the public. We need to move from recreational to a competitve sport, and funding can help this. To be achieve this we need a united front to appeal to those in corporate world / Governments to move forward.

buzz, great post to start, and will create fantastic debate by all.

 

[tony goodwin]

Interesting topic. Its wonderful how in just a few short days we can solve the problems in tenpin bowling in Melbourne. By the way it exists in Sydney and Brisbane. Those with theories should make themselves available to join one of these organisations and see how complicated this is. Maybe attend an annual general meeting.
Not only do the organisations have members they have assets. In the case of the CTBAM they have real estate assets. (Not as easy as saying lets do it for the good of the sport and hand over their building).
Both organisations I believe have made attempts over the last ten years to rectify the situation. The stumbling block I believe (but can be corrected by those with the relevant knowledge) is the TBA.
I know the MTBA struggle to come to terms with the role of the TBA. The MTBA are providing a service to their members and have the TBA requesting a levy for their use. The MTBA gets nothing zero zilch from the TBA in return. Sorry yes they get to say they are a member of a national organisation.
I guess what I am saying is great topic, wont be solved in a day or on this forum but for those who may know how or better get on to a committee and see how frustrating this reconciliation is!!!
Tony Goodwin
ex MTBA committee person
no relation to AMF Regional Manager

 

[jockey]

Lance I was referring to the MTBA and City Champs not states as I believe the others were.

For your info clarifications passed onto me from TBA rep. One should remember that TBA has a policy in place that prevents all people holding office within TBA from posting on public forums so I thank TBA for the clarification and permission to post factual statements from it.

1. CTBAM and MTBA are NOT governing bodies. They are regional associations that hold a licence with TBA as an affiliate association with a charter to accredit leagues and conduct the sport of tenpin bowling under the rules of the sport.
2. The National Governing Body for the sport of tenpin bowling is Tenpin Bowling Australia (TBA). Each state or territory has a branch of TBA, as the governing body of the sport in these states and territories.
3. The state branch and governing body in Victoria is an association known as Victorian Tenpin Bowling Association (VTBA). More information can be found at www.victenpins.com.au. The current president of VTBA is Justin Lopes.
4. Part of the state governing body’s charter is to conduct state championships and state team trials for representation at President’s Shield, Youth Teams Challenge, Walter Rachuig & De Veer Trophies.
5. Neither VTBA, CTBAM nor MTBA pay TBA ANY money. These associations collect membership fees and reimburse the centre proprietors on a fee per member basis as a contribution towards the centre lane levy fee paid to the Tenpin Bowling Trust.
6. TBA provide services to these associations in the form of the rules of our sport, coaches and officials via the TBA coaching officiating programs and a pathway to all bowlers through state championship to national championship, state teams to national teams, among many others.
7. CTBAM, MTBA, VTBA and TBA are all not-for-profit organizations and exist purely by the dedication of volunteers with a passion for our sport. Some of these volunteers put in up to 40 unpaid hours per week and then hold down a full time job on top of this.
8. CTBAM and MTBA do not conduct state championships.
9. CTBAM and MTBA do not conduct state team trials for state team representation to National Championships.
10. TBA (national body) conduct National Championships for Juniors, Youth & Adults. The Junior and Adult versions are the 2 largest tournaments in this country bar none.

The only thing I have to add is that:

Tenpin Australia Inc not TBA run the East Coast Challenge Cup (ECCC) and the associations in QLD (TQI), NSW (GSTBA), and VIC (MTBA) run trials for participants to represent them in the ECCC. The ECCC is not a TBA officially run event but all rules and regulations followed in the event adhere to TBA policies. It is a very large bowling event held annually with the venue alternating through the three eastern states.

 

[jockey]

Tony represented the MTBA and all of Melbourne's bowlers for a number of years and ensured that the association not only survived but moved forward to improve how it served its members. Having served alongside Tony on the committee for two years I too share his frustration in the way the attempts to reconcile have failed time and again over one thing or another.

Personality clashes, how existing assets whether we are talking cash or property would be used after the merge and having licenses to run events are some of the issues that have prevented the sensible to take place.

I can't understand for one thing why a bowling organisation needs to own a building, as the money is to service the bowlers not be tied up in non liquid assets but that is of course just my thought and others may think differently.

As Tony says if you want to help join either of the committees to get an idea of what you have to deal with. You will help by bringing your own ideas to the table.

 

[Buzzer]

So can someone tell me if I can become a member of both MTBA and CTBAM to get a bigger picture on this topic or will this be classed as a conflict of interest?

I actually have plans to join the CTBAM at some level and have had many discussions with Andrew Buckle over it but feel the time is not right just yet. especcially with some of the views I and many others have posted here.

I also have league delegate title this year in one my leagues and plan to go to the CTBAM's AGM to learn a bit more about it. - thanks for the advice Tony. would be a great place to start i guess.

Keep your thoughts coming guys. - this is being handled much better than I ever imagined. See we can talk this through its just going to take time and much care.

regards

Buzzer

 

[melboleo]

Hey Buzzer,

Well done on starting this thread. We have certainly received a lot of comments about how bowling should be run in Victoria. It is facinating to read all our fellow bowlers comments and it shows their passion for the game they love.

Keep it coming guys!

Leo

 

[andrew buckle]

Mark i don't think anyone has ever tried to be on both boards at once.
The comment about the CTBAM owning its own premises can only be answered by this.We are not paying rent to anyone at all.The membership fees we collect from bowlers and after we have paid our monies to the bowling centres goes straight back into the bowlers re: awards( we introduced the turkey chevron for junior bowlers only again this year)and they are all free, guarantee first place on our opening squad for our city championships,we were able to lower our fee structure for this year and our membership levels are going strong.
With all the comments from the bowlers i can assume that both CTBAM & MTBA AGM'S will be packed to the rafters this year and yes i also would like both associations to work more closely with each other.
Mark i still think you have a lot to offer the CTBAM and i hope that you will bring your enthusiasm and passion to the sport and your thoughts on how it should be run in this state to the AGM.

Andrew Buckle
Assistant Secretary
CTBAM

 

[jockey]

The TBA rep provided me with some further clarification.

11. There were 3 key reasons why our sport was excluded from the M2006 Commonwealth Games. The first 2 reasons are very public but the third reason was that in 1998 (when Melbourne made their submission for 2006) the structure of our sport in Victoria had no recognised state asosciaiton in place while the 2 large associaitons in Melbourne were not unified. The sport lacked direction at that time.

12. TBA did attempt unifications talks, as the mediator, between CTBAM &MTBA in May 2002 and then again in July 2003. In both cases, MTBA quoted that it would not happen while X was involved with CTBAM and CTBAM quoted that it would not happen while Y was involved at MTBA. Talks did not even reach the table. It obviously came down to personalities and nothing much has changed.

13. There is no doubt that these associations support their member base very well. However, it has come at a price (see item 11).

14. TBA, are in the midst of mediating a merge of the equivalent associaitons in Sydney. This has been going on for quite some time. The road has been a little rocky but they are at the table and there is definitely light at the end ogf tunnel. Looks like Sydney leads the way on this issue. Perhaps a leaf out of this book will be beneficial.

Hope this helps further the cause.

Mark

Having attended AGM's of the CTBAM as a league delegate and a non league delegate before I suggest you do go along and see what actually goes on. One thing I found disconcerting with their meetings is that at the time you had to be there in an official capacity to have a right to vote. Don't know if it has changed but I think it is not on as all paying members should have a right to vote with no conditions attached. What have they got to protect or hide?

The MTBA AGM is open to all members and all who attend have the right to vote and put your hand up to become a committee member at least when I last attended one.

Good to see all the interest as I too if I had the time would like to get back on to one or both of the committees and help Victorian bowling move with the times.

Regards
Terry Silva