NSW Open..TBA approved this condition? YOU'RE JOKING !

[wchester]

TBA .... please pull your finger out and live up to your own rules. The scoring at the recently completed NSW Open was unrealisticly high according to the TBA oil procedure guidelines for ranked tournaments.

This oil pattern COULD NOT have been less than a 4-1 ratio.
( I don't need to be there to make that judgement. Scores, and my involvement in this sport over the past 35 years tell enough of a story to make that determination. )

Maybe Peter Coburn would like to share some inside info with us all. C'mon Peter, step up and tell us the truth.

PS..In regards to the junior Nationals oil pattern/ratio....
The tournament was not a ratings points event therefore the lane condition did not need to be approved.

 

[da_cowman]

Wayne, I have read and re-read your post many times now. But there is something missing... WHAT OIL CONDITION ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? I guess your refering to the N.S.W Open. But as you didn't make a direct link to any lane condition at all, I'm still up in the air about it. Also, could you please post the lane condition you are talking about in your post as an attachment, or give a direct link to it.
Thanks

Still no proof Wayne... without proof, your statement/opinion means nothing. Without proof, I'll leave my trust with the TBA the ability for them to do their job properally.

Later Da Cowman!

 

[STEROID]

wchester,

As the NSW Open was my first Super 6 tournament outside of Victoria (THANKS TO WENDY BENSON AND QUEST FLEMINGTON FOR THE SPONSORSHIP), I thought it was a fair oil pattern! Although I don't know exactly what the oil ratio was (I don't think anyone can tell exactly what the oil ratio is when bowling), I do know that there was (at least for the righthanders) an out of bounds outside the 7 board (the ball wouldn't come back outside 7 board), which may not make it very playable. Watching other squads and bowling in C squad verified that going down the boards outside 7 or playing a swing shot out past 7 resulted in washouts and was unplayable (I saw some "ditches" on the weekend also).

Although the TBA is trying to make the oil patterns more difficult, a tremendous amount of knowledge is necessary to set up the patterns needed for a difficult pattern. (Maybe someone with your experience can help the TBA set up more difficult shots?) Just stating that the tournaments have to be 3:1 doesn't necessarily mean that the oil pattern will be difficult. As you might know from your 35 years of experience, there are a number of factors other than oil patterns that go into the scoring condition (for example, # of competitors, # of bowlers on a lane, competitors ability levels, etc.). For example, if you look at the people bowling the NSW Open, especially those in squad B, you could see that there was an abundance of WELL KNOWN AND WELL RESPECTED bowlers in the field, which may make the scoring even higher as they are better bowlers!

I understand your concern about the 3:1 rule of the TBA, and noone more than myself would like to see the scoring of the Super 6 tournaments be lower. Lower scoring conditions will show who the most physically talented as well as mentally strong bowlers are, but it is difficult to say it was NOT a 3:1 pattern if you were not at the tournament (even with the experience that you may have).

I hope you do not take this in any way offensive as that is not my intention. I am just giving you a perspective of someone who "barely" made the cut and would like (MORE THAN ANYONE IN AUSTRALIA PROBABLY) to see lower scores (or at least more difficult conditions) because more difficult conditions are definitely more MENTALLY challenging.

I would be interested to hear your response to this post. It would also be interesting to hear from any lefthanders who bowled in the NSW Open as 2 "lefties" won the tournament and 4 out of the top 5 Men were lefties. It would be interesting to hear if the left hand side was similar to what I described above for the righthanders.

Thanks,
Chris Mesagno

PLEASE NOTE: This is only MY personal view of the NSW Open and SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS A DIRECT VIEW OF THE TBA

 

[Beanie]

Thanks for that Chris, much appreciated.

I was personally disappointed in my effort (37th), this was mainly due to poor execution on my part. But your observations confirmed the suspicions I had about the lanes, and explains why I got the scores I did when I did given the lines I played game by game.

In short, I found a playable RH shot - I just didn't play it well enough or trust it enough.

I too would be interested in any feedback from lefties at the tournament.

David.

 

[GeorgeF]

The left was ok, if you sent it past 7 board it stayed there resulting in numerous wash outs. I played deep (for me anyway) 15 out to 12 using 10 board as my max out of bounds. As with most patterns, your speed and rev rate needed to be very consistant, mine fortunately was impeccable last weekend.

The key I guess was the left didnt break down, I was able to focus on making good shots and selecting the right ball and drilling to give me optimum carry at all times. I moved about 6 boards through out the course of the weekend.

I'm sure the addition of the new AMF Kegel for the SPC will dump a higher a concentration of oil on the lane. It will be interesting to see how things pan out.............

Thanks to the NZ bowlers who made the trip over, good to see you guys have a throw. Your only as good as the environment you bowl, bowling against us Aussies can only help your personal games.

 

[mattr]

Well i found that right to be ok as well. I did find it to be a dryer condition than my last super six in Melbourne at Easter. I stuggled with my feet on the weekend nothing else. I think the person who won executed the best and that was George, well done.

As for the kegal being at SPC, i say its about time. If AMF use the kegal to its full then we are bound to see some oil, something Australia has not seen at tournaments in the past.

However, i can see a problem, if the lanes are oily then the complaints will soon start and it wont be free hook as most of australian bowlers are used too, it will finaly return to a game of bowling not chucking.

I have been out of the game for the past year due to work, but that is all sorted now and i think that having a kegal at all supersix tournaments will be great and i am really looking forward to bowling full time both here and overseas

but as far as 3 to 1 patterns go, i think the scores would have been alot lower if it were a real 3 to 1.

 

[micky_macca]

What do you mean a REAL 3:1??

Am I correct in saying that there is no specific 3:1 condition, it's just a set of guidelines which must be followed when laying the condition??

So what is this "real" 3:1 condition you speak of?

 

[willey]

Yeah, as someone who has been setting lane conditions for as long as Wchester has been bowling on them, what is a real 3:1 and how many are there?
Now I don't know who Mattr is , I gave up checking thier bio's as everybody is scared to reveal who they really are, but this much I can tell him, that in no time in the past has there ever been as much oil put on lanes as in todays conditions, full stop.
More oil is not the answer, the longer it goes the easier for the crankers, why because they are the only one's with anything left on the ball to score, the weak wristed rest of us will have to point the ball to the headpin than hope we have enough backend for the ball to turn over, and if not hope we don't get too many 8-10's or even 5-7-10's to spare.
This idea of a Kegel for all Grand Prix events is a worry, who will have control of setting conditions, do we wont the same bowler winning every event, this is a possibility. This is not the first time that the same equipment was thought of for all the events, back in the early 90's this was bandied around, but Chris Batson helped them see the light.
I still believe we lighten the condition, the crankers wont like it, but everybody will have to play the conditions when they begin to break down, than we see the most versatile bowlers come out on top. other than that we go follow the rest of the world and set different conditions each day.
willey.

Sorry Wchester I don't mean to pick on you but we have opposing views on oil, this is good maybe someone can come up with the perfect solution, like no oil.

 

[yurac]

It's a catch 22 situation.
You make the conditions high scoring & everyone thinks they are bowling well even though they average 210 they still miss the cut & come back the following year.

You make the conditions low scoring & those same people only average 195 but miss the cut by the same amount as last year averaging 210, but turn around & say stick this place the condition is crap.

Last time I bowled in tournament were the cut was under the card for most the general comment was the condition sucks & I am not coming back next year.

What is the answer for both TBA & the centres, either way they are not going to win


Cheers
Colin

 

[KANAFA!]

interesting point there colin, very interesting

matty k

 

[jedi_bowler]

HAHAHA
I love Posts and forums like this; it gives me a chance to stir the pot.
It shows what bowlers do best complain.
If the conditions are too easy, someone complains “Oh the scores are to High”
If the conditions are to Hard and the scoring is low it’s “Oh the lanes were crap”
You are NEVER going to get the conditions right.
Even in the PBA they have 5 standard patterns A,B,C,D and E they use through out the tour Plus 6 Patterns for the Majors in there tour.
And guess what people some are considered high scoring and some Low scoring
People are so quick to get on here and complain and Blame the TBA for this and that.
Ok there not perfect but there trying to do something for this Sport.
If people are so worried about this Maybe the TBA need to look overseas and adopt some ideas. Maybe have a set number of patters for the Super 6 series that suit all.
Make One event a long pattern, and another a short one. And shuffle the patterns from year to year. In some internationals there is a long pattern one day and short the next. So that some bowlers are not locked out for the year.
Now I’m not some Gunn bowler and not some TBA official. I am just a bowler who bowls league and bowls tournaments like everyone else who bowls on the same old patterns like everyone else. And I also come to Totalbowling like many other bowlers to read the views and opinions like everyone else, And I like so many others out there are sick of people complaining about things that can be fixed if people got out on the lanes and learned to bowl and worked on there game. Instead of wasting time complaining about it.

 

[SNEEZY]

Maybe TBA should hold a conference on oil and conditioning of lanes for those bowlers that are interested :idea:

I read the posts on this forum almost every day and ever since TBA have brought in the rule of the 3:1 ratio of oiling, bowlers keep complaining about how it doesn't comply with the policy. Has anyone ever thought that just because the policy states that there is to be a 3:1 ratio doesn't mean that the oiling pattern is going to be exactly the same in every tournament. TBA or AMF could run a tournament, have 15 units of oil maximum in the middle of the lane and 5 units of oil on the edge of the lane. Under the policy this would be correct. On the other hand they could put 1500 units of oil in the middle of the lane and 500 units on the edge of the lane. Again this still complies to the policy (although unlikely to be that much as the oil would probably run off the lane). 8)

Maybe bowlers should stop reading into the oil patterns so much and adjust to what is on the lane on that given day when bowling the tournament. A lane pattern readout is good and telling people that the oil pattern is such and such a ratio is good however, it is only true until the first ball is bowled. After that the oil starts to carry down the lane and oil is picked up on the ball, then it is pointless reading the graphes that tell bowlers what is on the lane. :!: :!:

I have read a post on this forum that states that the oil pattern used at the Junior Nationals promoted high scoring and the scores were unrealistic for those that were bowling. Well in my opinion if you compare the scores to that of a super six tournament then you would probably find some comparisons. The averages bowled yes may have been high but there were also some very low averages as well. Those that bowled high averages are those bowlers that found a line, stuck with it and made the necessary adjustments that needed to be made when they had to. Also on this point, people must realise that those that are representing the state in the nationals whether it be in Junior or Adult have bowled in trials for that team and are the top 5 or 7 bowlers from that particular state. Therefore those bowlers should generally have a high average anyway. My point here is, it doesn't matter what oil condition there is out on the lanes, if you have the right state of mind, concentrate, make the necessary adjustments when needed and don't get bogged down with the statistics of what is and isn't on the lane then you might just do well enough to make the cut or even win the tournament.

 

[bowlerer]

well i dont know much about the bowling world... i bowl only once a week in an unknown league... but wasnt one of the points of throwing more oil on the lanes to make it easier for the cranker to bowl? isnt it the Crankers who draw the crowds? isnt it the crankers who create an interest in bowling?
Watching Andrew Frawley bowl is more entertaining to me than watching George Frillingos bowl because it just looks soo cool... no offence to George (like Geroge cares about my comments anyway huh, he's a champ!)
but yeh, with more Crankers and Power players making into the cut, the more entertaining it will be for non-bowlers to watch... creating interest in the sport, so more people will want to become pro's.. and when they do it means more demand for tournements and thus higher prize funds... and higher prizes further increases interest... you might even get some tournaments telivised... thus more sponsors and therefore an even bigger prize fund!
dont get me wrong, weak wristed bowlers can sand there balls down to 100 gritt to handle the extra oil so i reckon a solution is for somebody to build a compact, portable battery powered ball spinner that every weak-wristed bowler can use when the lanes are flooded. and when a weak wristed bowler strings tons of strikes together they get plenty of attention...
then again weak wristed bowlers have it too good... when a cranker beats a weak wristed bowler it seems to be expected, as many people believe crankers are superior bowlers due to the fact their style is more complicated than any other... but when a weak wristed bowler beats a cranker the crowd is left in awe...

anyways... just my opinion... if you disagree with me then please voice a reply... but dont take the mickey outta me... im a first yr uni student, so for all you know i could be suicidal (i'll throw you off the bridge before i jump)!!! hehe
cheers Sam

 

[mattr]

I have an idea although i know it will get shot down by alot of you people. Why not make a tournament format like this

Day 1
Short oil
everyone bowls 8 games

Day 2
Long oil
everyone bowls 8 games

Winner is detirmined by overal pinfall

We just get rid of matchplay and have a fair shot for everyone like they do for FIQ, and by doing it this way get the Aussie teams ready for what they will get when they go away and bowl.

I know this will never happen and as colin said you cant please everyone. Too much oil and the straight bowlers complain, too dry and the power players complian you just cant win. If you make the lanes easy people complain who average 220 and miss the cut then you make the condition hard and people complain and will not come back the year after.

I agree with bowlerer saying that its very entertaining watching power players bowl, i know i can sit and watch frawls, belmo, and i guess the most entertaining of all Tim Mack when he graces us with his presence, i can watch these all day

Now that AMF have a kegal they should and i say should be able to post up the condition that will be down well before the tournament, i guess time will tell

 

[Graham]

I know this will never happen

Never say never

 

[mattr]

I know this will never happen

Never say never

OOOOO please let it happen hahahah

 

[bfcc]

hi all , just a question for the bowlers that were there did the lanes get cleaned off then left for a couple of hours before the 3 to 1 condition was layed or were the lanes just washed and oiled at the same time?

the reason i asked is because we have found with the sport series here in queensland that u need to clean the lanes off leave them for a couple of hours to dry off , then lay the condition down. we do this so the house shot doesn't come back through the pattern, i think this is were they are going wrong with the super 6 events they are putting down a 3 to 1 pattern and after a couple of games the house shot is coming through the pattern and the lanes open up.

i am sure the guys that have bowled in the sport series since the start can tell u the difference that it has made by cleaning the lanes off the night before.

 

[luke]

matts idea is one of teh best ideas ive ever heard of it is all fair then

 

[farma]

I've been reading this thread for a couple of days and just can't help myself anymore.

First of all Wayne, as I am absolutely certain you already know, it is not only the lane condition that effects the scoring in a particular centre. The pin carry at the weekend was superb, both through the quality of the pins, and also either the quality or angle of the kickbacks. In my opinion these both increased the scoring.

As previously stated by George and Chris there was an out of bounds on both sides of the lane (although I think it might have been a bit bigger on the right), and you definitely could not just "throw it at the gutter, and let it come back", and there wasn't a lot of hold if you pulled the shot. But if you made a good shoot you were rewarded accordingly. I think that I personally left 3/4 10 pins in 10 games.

Lane surface can makes a huge difference to the scoring level. For example we have run three tournaments in New Zealand in recent months using the same lane condition, same oil, and same machine in three different centres, and the winning averages have been 208, 205, and 234.

Also ask the Hong Kong team what difference it makes if you increase the cleaner in the lane machine. When the Asian Zone Champs were in HK in 2002 they practised on the tournament condition for months in the centre holding the tournament. Then when the Kegel lane men oiled the lanes they included more cleaner. The result, HK did not win one medal, and I actually think that no one of them cut, because they couldn't handle the different lane condition, but the same oil pattern.

Therefore I don't believe that you can make statements about an oil pattern without knowing all of the facts and not just seeing the scores!!

I think that the suggestion by Mattr is superb, although I would think that it is important to have a three day tournament and still have a masters final, pinfall carried forward of course. I hope that Graham's statement leads somewhere.

To Bfcc, to the best of my knowledge they did wash and oil the lanes at the same time throughout the weekend.

 

[Graham]

I think that the suggestion by Mattr is superb, although I would think that it is important to have a three day tournament and still have a masters final, pinfall carried forward of course. I hope that Graham's statement leads somewhere.

I am definately open to new formats and suggestions for things to try. Personally I think that the qualifying - matchplay format has its place - but not in every tournament. We will be looking at different formats in the coming months that are being used around the world, and hoping to introduce them into tournaments next year. Ive already had initial talks with Tony about doing what Matt has suggested for SA Cup next year, and it is quite possible something will come out of it. Will keep you all informed as usual