Heaviwer Pins?

[Stuart Little]

Just wondering what your thoughts are on this. If heavier pins were introduced, would it see a uniform change in everyone's scores?

The debate I am having is that strokers would struggle to knock the pins over more so than a high power bowler. Someone like Belmo would hardly notice a difference compared to someone like George (just using you two as examples) who might find it a lot harder to knock the pins over because of the work they put into the ball being so different.
Whats your view on this?

Thanks, Hamish

 

[willey]

I can see it now, the Seniors and the Juniors combining to send Hate Mail to Stuart Little.

But seriously, it's the Angle of Entry that is responsible for the high scoring of today, not the Pins, I have not seen any real improvment of pins in the 36 years I worked in Bowling Centre's, in fact they have made them Heavier over the years. The pins of today are about 3 pound 6-8 ounces, they used to be about 3 pound 2.

It's always been my belief if you want to remove the Angle of Entry than take the Oil off the Lanes, this will nearly eliminate the Reactive Ball. We have all experienced those lanes after many many games where we just can't score or rely on the Reactive to be controlled on dry conditions.

willey

 

[Tiger]

I can see it now, the Seniors and the Juniors combining to send Hate Mail to Stuart Little.

But seriously, it's the Angle of Entry that is responsible for the high scoring of today, not the Pins, I have not seen any real improvment of pins in the 36 years I worked in Bowling Centre's, in fact they have made them Heavier over the years. The pins of today are about 3 pound 6-8 ounces, they used to be about 3 pound 2.

willey

Not to mention also, that it would make life a lot more difficult for lady bowlers and the elderly who still want to continue on in the game.
I've bowled on as low 3lb 4oz pins at Moonah during the 90's and as high as 3lb 10oz at various stages, and found that, even as a stroker, my carry was infinitely better with the heavier pins, because I tend to drill a lot of shots rather than rely on light hits.
Not sure what the current weight is, I'll ask this week.

 

[Easy Tiger]

It's just a theory I have, but maybe by using heavier pins it might actually increase scoring from pocket hits, because a common leave is the 10pin (right hander). With heavier pins, there would be less pin deflection, and the 6 pin might not wrap around the 10pin as much from the flattgutter.

You'd also leave less 9 pins..

 

[akdefl]

Heavier pins are harder to knock over due to the fact that there is more weight on the deck. The ball now has to hit and push through more wieght before it loses all its energy going through the pins, once its lost all its energy it just deflects.
How about we keep going with options, like removing voids and changing the center of gravity of the pins to make it harder to get "taps".
Lowering the flat gutters to stop the 6 pin tap on the 10.

But like it has been outlined, the problem with doing that is then it makes it that much harder for the older ladies, the bumper bowlers and so on that don't know or care about lane conditions, reactive balls etc, they just want to have fun and hit pins. So you have to work out how to make the game still playable for everyone. Still the only solution that makes sense to me is to bring in the regulation ball that the WTBA were working on, but then that opens up another can or worms. Like a lot of the bowlers with inflated egos now just cause balls and lane conditions are masking how good a bowler that they really are, they don't want to see changes. Some say they do, but when you do they are usually the first to cry about it.
I think it might just be another straw to clutch at in the hope that this game changes to a sport one day.

 

[willey]

One has to remember, most Topline Bowlers are only using 15lb balls anyway, with that fact than how is heavier pins going to make a difference?

willey

 

[jason_doust]

USBC experimented with heavier pins. It was a disaster, widening the gap between higher and lower average players.

In the 80's, I had the privilege of playing on Bill Taylor's "Shotmaker" pins with Brenton Davy at Rockdale one night. I can tell you that 3lb 10oz single voided sticks are really hard to knock over and that was when I used to really hit the ball. (Pre-urethane balls for me.)

Willey, some truth there, but short oil just makes the powder puff release dominant. The answer to making the game score more honestly is as simple as it is tough. Take away the great big ditch shots. This will make the super-duper balls too jumpy and keep the carry OK for weaker players. Before you all go nuts, I'm saying some area by way of crown oil is good, but straight out blocked lanes should go.

Presently we have house shots (sometimes stupidly easy) and sport shots (sometimes stupidly hard). The middle ground for both seems a good solution. Make the house shot more honest and the sport shot easier for the time being. This way, in a couple of years, the sport shot could be made gradually tougher.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[Denver Sporting]

Jason,

Your memory is still very good. I recall that session. What I do recall is that there were many fewer cold 8's, 9's and corners, so the really well executed shots WERE rewarded, however, the poor shots, half pockets etc were punished more than with normal pins.

In truth its the voids in the pins, along with the tougher covers they now have that have a greater impact on carry than just the weight. The double voided pins have a lower centre of gravity which makes them fly upwards more when hit than the older single voided pins which tended to fly lower from the same hit. The newer double voided pins also are easier to tilt to the required (9 degrees is it?) as they are more top heavy than the older design pins.

Brenton

 

[Wrench]

When I was doing lanes on the PBA tour we used, from my opinion for marketing reasons, the gold pins that were introduced and were 1-3oz heavier (If memory serves me correctly). These pins, in this situation did not decrease scoring by any means. That being said, Jason is right about the 80's but I believe lane conditions, balls and lack of the current friction we all experience in today's game were the main reasons for the huge gap. In todays game I believe a "Little bit heavier pin" will make scores higher do to the environment, entry angle and a whole list of other things but I also believe a "3lb 13-16oz pin" would bring scoring down for the average player.
Great topic since many people believe a change in lane conditions is the only solution for the high scoring predicament we are currently facing on a global level. I personally think all specs should be tightened up to some degree but I also stem from a competitive nature. My non-competitive business side tells me you have to provide the customer base with options unless you are fortunate enough to have 1000 people that all believe in the same Philosophy. With the equipment and information that is available today we should be able to achieve 75% customer satisfaction.
Have a great day,
Don Agent
Kegel

PS- great job at the roller Belmo if you're out there.......

 

[Denver Sporting]

In truth its the voids in the pins, along with the tougher covers they now have that have a greater impact on carry than just the weight. The double voided pins have a lower centre of gravity which makes them fly upwards more when hit than the older single voided pins which tended to fly lower from the same hit. The newer double voided pins also are easier to tilt to the required (9 degrees is it?) as they are more top heavy than the older design pins.

From my previous post on this topic, I just realized I contradicted myself. I meant to say "higher" centre of gravity. Dunno what I was thinking when I posted that!!!

:splat: