SQ Rachuig/De Veer Eligibility Change

[DaleS]

I never mentioned commitment because nomination does not immediately infer commitment, only interest.

Personally names have never worried me, grew up with Carl, and bowled against, him (in juniors & seniors) as well as bowling against & being thumped by Ramsay, Kury, Richmond etc...(showing my age now), I guess it boils down to any person can be beaten on any given day, we all learn that the hard way most times. So as for extra compettion, bring it on.

Further to that if you worry about Pilkington, Pearson, & Douglas (no offense guys) then how will you go up against Belmonte, Walsh, etc. If you really do get worried about names (not trying to sound elitest either) then maybe you shouldn't nominate for Rauchig. For one, I'm hoping there is a big turn out, it can only be good for Queensland bowling.

Getting back to topic, if we're treating this like a tournament (and by the looks of things we are), then shouldn't we "pay our money and take our chances" so to speak.

Also, If we're trying to keep quiet who is nominating, well sorry, I dont think that will work either, bowlers like all people talk, and you can be guaranteed that most of those who nominate or who intend nominating will be known prior to a ball being thrown whether you publish a list on names or not. That being the case and following your argument Andrew, people will still not participate due to the 'name bowlers' nominating and we're back to square one again.

Reluctant about change, for one I'm not. Nor am I trying to step on toes. Maybe I am just blind, but none of the arguments presented to me about delayed nomination make sense (to me), thats all.

 

[Jase]

I can understand the reluctance to accept this unusual form of nomination because it is a radical departure, but the fact is a lot of people do not nominate because they think they have no chance when they see the quality of the other nominees.
Jason that's a fact. As soon as we publish a short list of starters people see names like Morty or Jason or Pilko etc and they immediately think these are gun bowlers I have no chance. So they stay out.
I really dont see what the problem is. You guys are gun bowlers and the top guns will always come through.

Now Andrew i am not sure what goodies they sell down there on the coast but perhaps some of it has gotten into TBAQ as well.

Me a gun bowler!

Peoples excuses are relevant to costing and nothing else, it doesn’t matter who is bowling, rolling off or anything, its all about money. I mean George, Brando, Mickey, Adam and i am sure others are going to be rolling off that doesn’t stop me or anybody else for that matter not to nominate. I mean just because the Carl, Terry and the Walsh’s bowled at Capalaba on the weekend didn't stop them from getting 55 + people Nominate before they bowled did it?????

I like Pilko agree that changes are great to see and that the board is trying, and i like others think it’s silly to not get a nomination form signed before the event.

Just my opinion!!

Anyways you guys have proved in the past that you know best.

 

[Graham]

Yes Andrew it works both ways - what about the "Top Gun" bowler that has a bad day at the office and then decides "Well im not going to bother nominating, I have no chance."

Take Masters qualifying - you can't decide afterwards to pay your $5 nomination - you have to do it beforehand.

Maybe a nomination fee beforehand of $5-10, then if they wish to continue and bowl the second round they pay $25-$30. Then it is a small nomination fee which wont scare too many people off. Someone who is serious will not mind "having a go" and nominating at this price if it means they have a good day in the tournament and win some money then they have a chance to go on and make the state team. And someone who doesnt nominate and has a blinder has no chance if they didnt pay their $5 beforehand.

As ive said - great idea - just needs to be fine tuned. I think the above may solve your problem.

 

[Jase]

Bit like Masters qualifying - you can't decide afterwards to pay your $5 nomination - you have to do it beforehand.

Don’t even get me started on Masters!!!!!

Is there any chance Andrew that maybe The Vacancy that went further then a few of the Masters qualifiers will get to roll off for Rachuig. The Vacancy doesn’t have to nominate nor pay a cent and it could see how it is traveling after the first 10 games.

 

[bm2]

Has there been any thought given to what kind of conditions will be set for the Twin Tour? Will the first Twin Tour (State team Qualifier) be played on a 3 to 1 condition... who will be setting the condition TBAQ or the Twin Tour??????
Regards
Brian

I think we should all do well to remember that the Twin Tour is first and foremost, the Twin Tour, and 3 to 1 patterns do not the Twin Tour make!

Round 2 of the rolloffs are specifically that, and should be where the variance to lane conditions is applied, be it long or short oil, or 3 to 1. The cream will rise to the top regardless of what is laid down, the only difference next year is that the herd producing the cream should be bigger than it has been in a long long time, and there will be no "givens".

just my humble little opinion

Broni

 

[FLOWER]

Twin Tour lane conditions at Greenslopes 2006 will be the pattern used at the Greenslopes Tour Stop in September - some statistics from that event:

A squad - 15 men - 189 average
B squad - 24 men - 192 average
C squad - 22 men - 190 average

The first Greenslopes statistics from February 2005 were -

A squad - 29 men - 183 average
B squad - 26 men - 182 average
C squad - 32 men - 185 average

As a matter of interest also: Aspley

A squad - 30 men - 197 average
B squad - 28 men - 196 average
C squad - 28 men - 197 average

These figures surprised me as at both Greenslopes in Feb. and Aspley, A and C squads bowled 5 to a pair and B squad 4 to a pair - I would have assumed that B squad would have been the higher average but I think those numbers show not much difference between the squads.

The roll-off at Greenslopes will have 5 to a pair in all three squads if needed.

FLOWER

 

[hamster]

Well so far i've read some valid points but really i can't get pass the fact that alot of it is saying " How this effect me?"

Jas, you haven't paid anything yet and the pressure is already getting to you.You said like a good fish, a good fish would take the bait without getting hooked. C'mon mate the decision has already been made and advertise and as a member of the state team you should be helping promote "What Rachuig and representing your state is all about" not attacking a new idea.

Also the comment about Masters isn't what this is about.This is about getting SEQ back to the force it once was.

Grey-ham's point of maybe like securing a bond of the nomination does have merit for 2007.

To quote Graham:"Yes Andrew it works both ways - what about the "Top Gun" bowler that has a bad day at the office and then decides "Well im not going to bother nominating, I have no chance.""
But wouldn't a "TOP GUN" bowler believe in his own ability that at round 2 on the more difficult condition that his experience and knowledge would help him make up the difference?

He's no "TOP GUN" if he took that attitude.

Why do bowlers not roll off? COST? If this was all laid out alot earlier for the bowlers they could get a realistic idea of what they have to do to cover this.MYTHS? There are too many to name but respect for ur fellow bowler would go a long way to helping things.COMMUNICATION AND COMMITMENT?
Both have been lacking and we all have to accept the blame here. As Andrew stated about Rocky only 3 members out of 14 bowled state champs.

Pilko why should they change the condition for the Twin Tour? Why should they screw around with a proven formula? So to suit one group you want to upset another? You yourself know how successful the Twin Tour is and is the reason why numbers have improved for tournys throughout SEQ. Leave it as it is.

Unless we as a TEAM encourage and support everyone to have a go, the distance between us and Current Champions N.S.W. will just get greater.

Hamster
Tony Hamilton
p.s Don't know how to do the quote thing- sorry
pss How did i go now, Tim?

 

[Easy Tiger]

p.s Don't know how to do the quote thing- sorry
pss How did i go now, Tim?

You went very well Tony, and I'm very proud of you, such an achievement!
PS - that's how you quote ^

I think these changes are excellent. There are a few issues that could be resolved for 2007, but this is 2006 we are focussing on, so perhaps that talk should be left for a later date, and perhaps it would be best if these things were pushed aside so we can promote the tournament and promote entries?

I also don't see why changing the condition for the twin tour would be a good move either. Proven format = don't change, not even for a roll off. Whether its 10:1 (which it's not) or 1:1, the best will still come through. That's what matters. Whatever happens I'll be at the Twin Tour - keenly watching other people's progress in their insatiable quest to represent their home land.

 

[Andrew S.]

Tony has raised another good point that hasn't been discussed much.
Cost.
We estimate the approximate cost next year to be around $1400.
However we will have a far more accurate figure which will be published in detail before the roll-off.
One of the areas we can and will improve at TBAQ is the breakdown of costs incurred by the team members. This breakdown, along with other details such as accommodation - which is already booked - will be published in full.
There will be a major discussion/briefing after the second leg of the roll-off, and Fundraising events will be at the top of the agenda.
It would be great to see some ideas regarding fundraising events here on this forum. Its very easy for us all to get bogged down debating the format but the format is only part of it.
The Board does need help in this area. Advice and ideas on fundraising, sponsorship, marketing and advertising are needed now.
The Team should be known by the first week in March. That gives us almost 7 months to raise the money. We need the ideas to start now.

 

[DaleS]

Ok A couple of points:

1. I have to agree with Tony on the cost issue, that is one of the things that has prevented me personally from try out for the team. I'm glad that TBAQ are moving to action that issue.

2. If we're going to talk commitment & communication, we need to know what we are committing to, not just a huge umbrella where as part of the team you are expected to do this this & this. Perhaps what can be put together is a list of tournament/functions/fundraisers that need to be attended, surely some of these can and are planned in advance(state championships for instance), if the team wont be known until March then we have at a minimum 3 months to organise these things. Ideally it would be better to know them prior to the 1st rolloff as last minute things inevitably lead to arguments and people not turning up.

3. Conditions - I know I asked for one squad for all earlier, but, as a very wise lady put to me on the weekend, the top golfers dont get to play on the nice placid conditions early in the morning after the 1st qualifying cut, if we do consider ourselves 'good' bowlers with 'good' skills, should it matter what we bowl on ? Yes this is a backflip, but, I'm big enough to admit when I think I've made an error in judgement.

4. No one has yet presented me with a valid argument as to why nomniations can take place after the 1st rolloff. I wish I could have got my money back after bowling the K & K qualifying earlier in the year, I bowled dismally. Is this as important as the K & K, in my eyes its of geater significance than any tournament and perhaps this decision needs to be re-considered.

5. Backing up TBAQ - I agree we shoudl get behind the association, but that does not mean we should not be able to voice our opinion on a subject that we are all very passionate about and this appears to be one of them. I would, however, like to see this not descend into a free for all, as it detracts from the valuable discussion which is going on.

6. Gun bowlers - Thanks for not including me in that Tony I doubt I could live up to the expectations .

Regardless of what comes of this, changes or no changes, who nominates & who doesn't, I will be nominating next year. I have but one more thing to say, -

BRING IT ON !!!!!

 

[The Spanner]

Ok A couple of points:
1. I have to agree with Tony on the cost issue, that is one of the things that has prevented me personally from try out for the team. I'm glad that TBAQ are moving to action that issue.

The costs aren't too bad when you compare them against some of the other teams. Congrats to the TBAQ for having the foresight to book next years accomodation. Apparently a stones throw from the bowl, there will be no need for a team bus (costly). Well done.

2. If we're going to talk commitment & communication, we need to know what we are committing to, not just a huge umbrella where as part of the team you are expected to do this this & this. Perhaps what can be put together is a list of tournament/functions/fundraisers that need to be attended, surely some of these can and are planned in advance(state championships for instance), if the team wont be known until March then we have at a minimum 3 months to organise these things. Ideally it would be better to know them prior to the 1st rolloff as last minute things inevitably lead to arguments and people not turning up.

Dale, last year after the roll offs in March(?) we were told one date that we had to keep for the Redcliffe Pro Am in September. Some people still didn't show. Happens all the time.

4. No one has yet presented me with a valid argument as to why nomniations can take place after the 1st rolloff. I wish I could have got my money back after bowling the K & K qualifying earlier in the year, I bowled dismally. Is this as important as the K & K, in my eyes its of geater significance than any tournament and perhaps this decision needs to be re-considered.

Personally, I don't see the big deal. Everyone is in the same boat. Comparing the K&K to a roll off is like comparing apples and elephants.
.

Regardless of what comes of this, changes or no changes, who nominates & who doesn't, I will be nominating next year. I have but one more thing to say, -
BRING IT ON !!!!!

Good ... as with De Veer, the more the merrier. Best of luck.
Peter Martin

 

[Jase]

Well so far i've read some valid points but really i can't get pass the fact that alot of it is saying " How this effect me?"
Jas, you haven't paid anything yet and the pressure is already getting to you.You said like a good fish, a good fish would take the bait without getting hooked. C'mon mate the decision has already been made and advertise and as a member of the state team you should be helping promote "What Rachuig and representing your state is all about" not attacking a new idea.:

And people wonder why we try and not get involved!!!!!
Tony i was asked to comment on this topic by a couple of people and yes i held off but no i was encouraged to speak my mind and give an opinion. Weather it be bad or good i knew it would get shot down and yes you proved that for me. If you read in my other post i support the fact that TBAQ are trying to make the changes, it doesn’t mean i have to agree with all changes as i am sure there are just as many others Dale included does this mean he also is crumbling to pressure like i must be. Thanks for the good advice i might go see a shrink and see if i can get it rectified before that event starts next year.
One reason i held of in replying to this thread is because we had our Gold Coast Team Roll off on the weekend with a very similar format so once i saw how it worked FIRST HAND i thought now i have merit to be able to comment on it and no i don’t think it worked the way that the board had hoped! But hey that’s just my opinion again! Yes i do still stand firm regarding the nomination side of things, and i think Dale has given some good examples as to how and why this should be as has Pilko and i for one believe there should be some sort of nomination fee even if it is $10 to help go towards off setting costs that the Team always seems to have to come up with.

Why do bowlers not roll off? COST? If this was all laid out alot earlier for the bowlers they could get a realistic idea of what they have to do to cover this.
.:

Costs are the BIGGEST problem we have not lack of talent. We all know that in the past people haven’t rolled off because they could spend there hard earned money on at least 3 Major tournaments a year and have a chance to get money back is what all the talk has been about over the years, so please not try and tell me other wise as i find a Quote from the Hamster himself once said!

My gripe is,Rachuig is for those who can afford it and is not a true test to get the best team possible. Any South Queensland Bowler could make the team with the format, but most can't afford to and luck is needed with the short format. Geez you only have to preform for two days which suits bowlers like yourself to a tee. I feel for the people who preform well week in week out and have things go wrong on the day.Thats why it should be decided over a season of tournaments.Yes its unfortunate that you have to travel so far to compete in tournys but we all have choices to make and if you want something bad enough you'll go after it..:

Enough said there i think!!!!

COMMUNICATION AND COMMITMENT?
Both have been lacking and we all have to accept the blame here. As Andrew stated about Rocky only 3 members out of 14 bowled state champs.
..:

Not sure why we keep going back to Rockhampton must be a sore point there over something, I mean i had work commitments at the time as did many others so i am not sure what the beef is there.
Andrew has indicated at this stage that costs could be around $1400.00 to go to Tasmania, Andrew do you think this will include Air fares? Commitment costs like Fund raisers, Practice sessions and stuff like that the reason i ask is that it Cost around $1000.00 last year without Air Fares, Fund Raisers and Practice sessions( and there wasn’t to many of these) just to go to Sydney.

Pilko why should they change the condition for the Twin Tour? Why should they screw around with a proven formula? So to suit one group you want to upset another? You yourself know how successful the Twin Tour is and is the reason why numbers have improved for tournys throughout SEQ. Leave it as it is.

I can see the reasoning behind what Pilko is saying here Tony, and yes i do hope that the new roll off ideas do get the BEST Team to Represent out state, you may not know this but i for one have been trying to make changes to this Rachuig roll offs since the Beginning of the year and i was pushing to hold it in both Mary tour and Jeff Briggs sports series. Please don’t tell me i am shooting it down! I have been to all Rachuig meetings and throwing allot of ideas at Andrew, Gordon Little and the board to make some of these changes so that yes we can start to send a stronger Team than we have been in the past. As for conditions we need to have a team that can perform on tough conditions and tough conditions under Match Play format as well and that can spare and not just string a couple of strikes. I mean we shouldn’t be lining people up in the seventh frame of a game at state level. Maybe we should be taking a leaf out of Victoria’s roll off and cutting a top whatever and having a match play to finish off picking your seven I mean after all we are playing match play format down there it seems silly to not have a team with match play experience on a tough condition before you go away.
Just my thoughts

 

[DaleS]

Peter,

The costs aren't too bad when you compare them against some of the other teams.

Yes but costs are still a deciding factor, and for some the only factor.

We were told one date that we had to keep for the Redcliffe Pro Am in September. Some people still didn't show. Happens all the time.

I accept that, it still doesn't change the fact that dates known in advance still help, and make people think about what they are committing to. There's that word again COMMITMENT.

comparing the K&K to a roll off is like comparing apples and elephants.

Actually no, both are being run like tournaments, from that perspective, they are identical, just Rauchig is more important to some and less important to others.

One last thing...we're all passionate about this, otherwise why would we bother......Passion is what is needed, passion for your state, your team, your game and most of all passion for the people around us, if we can harness all this passion, we can do anything........

 

[ChrisG]

Cost, it can be a worry. Without my wife taking on a job earlier this year (bless her), I doubt that I would have been able to afford to go to Sydney.

A simple suggestion for people who are worried about the costs for next year. If you are even contemplating rolling off, then start putting some money aside now if possible. It is 3 1/2 months until the end of the roll-offs, and in that time, any money saved would be a bonus for you as you would be that much closer to paying it off.

I do have one or two fundraising ideas which I will share at the meeting on Saturday if appropriate.

DWV Peanut

P.S. Spanner, don't forget to bring your towel!

 

[hamster]

Hey JP,
Since your the man in the know, can you answer a few Questions i still have?

Why is there a nomination fee and what does it actually go to?

Please realise that i haven't got into this in much depth as you have and i'm sure the majority of SEQ bowlers haven't either.

When did SEQ Rachuig/ Walter Deveer roll off become a tournement? I thought it was actually that, a roll off. You turn up and roll off.

You said

One reason i held of in replying to this thread is because we had our Gold Coast Team Roll off on the weekend with a very similar format so once i saw how it worked FIRST HAND i thought now i have merit to be able to comment on it and no i don’t think it worked the way that the board had hoped!

So did you guys pay a nomination fee? Did you bowl in a Sport Series/ Twin Tour situation? Then bowl on two different patterns in a 3/5 man team?
If so, please explain what didn't work?

I do like your answer that cost is the biggest problem to bowlers not trying out and don't tell you otherwise. Funny how there's a thread in here which you pulled my QUOTE from that stopped several bowlers from trying out this year. It really had nothing to do with costs, did it?

Also i still believe in my suggestion is an option one day(2 TT, 2 Grand prix and 2 SS) first 7 on points. ( thats a rough copy)

Jas you do deserve a big pat on the back for all your efforts and alot of it hasn't gone unnoticed to those that have kept there eyes open.
You know that over the last 5 to 10 yrs i've watched and listen to how Rachuig in QLD has changed.It seems to me its gone from the Board in control and the bowlers unhappy to the Bowlers wanting more control and the Board unhappy.

For the 2006 assault its great to see that both the Board and the Bowlers have done the best thing possible and put South Queensland bowling FIRST.

An idea for fund raising? Why don't we showcase our teams in a event that has a calcutta as a side show? Put on like a World Cup format. Pool all reps into groups. they play each opponent once with 3pts W, 1pt D, 0 pts L etc etc (again rough copy) .

Finally Jason i didn't intend on shooting you down but i thought guys like yourself and others would realise how bad of shape STH QLD Rachuig Men is in and after the last few yrs things really haven't improved and would understand that a whole new approach was needed.

Also do we start posting here or on the Twin Tour section on what squad we would want to bowl in for Greenslopes 2006.

hamster

 

[Stuart Little]

Do junior State champs count? If we are turning 18 next year can we still roll off for rauchuig?

 

[DaleS]

Hi Hammo,

When did SEQ Rachuig/ Walter Deveer roll off become a tournement? I thought it was actually that, a roll off. You turn up and roll off.

I believe that I suggested that it was being treated as a tournament as it was being run in conjunction with with the Twin Tour, I actually don't think Jason was the first one to mention it.

cost is the biggest problem to bowlers not trying out and don't tell you otherwise. Funny how there's a thread in here which you pulled my QUOTE from that stopped several bowlers from trying out this year. It really had nothing to do with costs, did it?

For one the reason I couldn't try out was partly cost, the other was commitment, to myself and to the team, I couldn't commit to the team so I didn't try out. I don't know about anyone else, everyone has their reasons.

Also i still believe in my suggestion is an option one day(2 TT, 2 Grand prix and 2 SS) first 7 on points. ( thats a rough copy)

Great thats what we need new ideas.

Jas you do deserve a big pat on the back for all your efforts and alot of it hasn't gone unnoticed to those that have kept there eyes open.

I agree, Jason has tried to do alot for bowling in Queensland and should get a pat on the back for doing so, and yes, Jason is a mate of mine as is Tony. They both deserve a pat on their back for their passionate support of bowling in Qld, because I know in the end they both want Qld Bowling to succeed.

For the 2006 assault its great to see that both the Board and the Bowlers have done the best thing possible and put South Queensland bowling FIRST.

Here here !!!! Don't you think we should be united in this instead of fighting/bickering amongst ourselves, open discussions, no personal shots, all the cards on the table stuff. That way everyone knows where we are and where we all need to go and AGREE on a method of getting where we want to go.

An idea for fund raising? Why don't we showcase our teams in a event that has a calcutta as a side show? Put on like a World Cup format. Pool all reps into groups. they play each opponent once with 3pts W, 1pt D, 0 pts L etc etc (again rough copy) .

Again more new ideas...great !!!!!

Finally Jason i didn't intend on shooting you down

Then don't shoot anyone down, this doesn't have to become personal, we need to work together not against each other on this, as we all know everyone has an opinion, and everyone cant be right all the time (sound like a bad line of cliche's don't I).

I thought guys like yourself and others would realise how bad of shape STH QLD Rachuig Men is in and after the last few yrs things really haven't improved and would understand that a whole new approach was needed.

And thats what I thought we were doing, TBAQ has taken the first big step, we are now contributing to the discussion and hopefully helping the new approach to a point where everyone can be happy with it or at least willing to give it a go.

Also do we start posting here or on the Twin Tour section on what squad we would want to bowl in for Greenslopes 2006. hamster

Is that a Rachuig nomination I hear Tony ? I hope so. Someone like you with so much passion for the game and Qld should be involved in Rachuig in some way. Passion is one of the things we need to get back. I hope I've made sense, its getting late, and I'm tired. Sorry if I've offended anyone, its not intended to, just putting forward a point of view that I think needs to be voiced. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[DaleS]

OK I've had some sleep now, hopefully my head is clearer (but I'm not guaranteeing anyting, and thats enough from some of you about my head never being clear)

One reason i held of in replying to this thread is because we had our Gold Coast Team Roll off on the weekend with a very similar format so once i saw how it worked FIRST HAND i thought now i have merit to be able to comment on it and no i don't think it worked the way that the board had hoped! But hey that's just my opinion again!

So did you guys pay a nomination fee? Did you bowl in a Sport Series/ Twin Tour situation? Then bowl on two different patterns in a 3/5 man team?
If so, please explain what didn't work?

Actually thats a good point, what did & didn't work, I'd be curious to hear that as well, as from that we might be able fine tune what is being proposed now.

 

[Andrew S.]

Do junior State champs count? If we are turning 18 next year can we still roll off for rauchuig?

You need to be 18, on or before the first day of the Nationals.