question for tournament bowlers

[kagg69]

Hi,
Yes I would like toadd my thoughts about tournaments. This years Margaret Cole tournament in Maitland was a sham. The powers that be at AMF decided to change the date and even the manager at Maitland didn't know until the entry forms were sent out, this put it on at the same time as the Junior Nationals. Not only that they changed the qualifying games from 12 to 10 but charged the same, and they also made it the top 16 instead 14 to qualify.Of course numbers were down as not only Adults couldn't bowl but also some of the Juniors. This tournament has run for many years with a good turn out, why did they have to change it? I feel that those that hold higher positions in any organisation should talk more to the regular bowler, as they say "if it aint broke - don't fix it".
Just my thoughts,
Sandi

 

[CSP]

Sandi,

And the organisers of the Hunter Valley Open Magaret Cole event are going to have to fix alot after this year. There were alot of disappointed bowlers that stated wouldn't be back.
Management need to start arranging things to make the event 100% better. Otherwise next year will be worse than this year.

Regards,
Christian

 

[Ken S]

PRO-AMS:

Neither George nor Graham would have been around to remember them but I'd like to point out that Pro-Ams the night before the major tournament used to be an important feature of the the Brisbane Cup and Sunshine Special when they were so successful at Clayfield. They were well supported by both the top bowlers and those wanting to learn from them. One year, for the Sunshine Pro-Am, and with the assistance of one the Brisbane's radio stations, we also had some of Brisbane's top reps from other sports including Wally Lewis and the Queensland cricket team wicket keeper at the time (Ray ?), John Ribot and Pat Welch. Not only were the lanes full of bowlers but we had spectators three or more deep on the concourse.
These Pro-Ams were successful in that they offered lower average bowlers a chance to bowl with more experienced players, hopefully to learn something along the way but also get to know them. They also were a great promotion for the up-coming tournament and many non-tournament bowlers turned up on the weekend to watch the tournament bowlers they had met at the Pro-Am, compete. These tournaments drew not only competitors but a multitude of spectators.
And, on the subject of tournaments in general, without promotion, tournaments don't get to the ears of the right people. But, there's a limit to what you can do. Some bowlers say they want to bowl tournaments but can't cut it with the higher averages. Cannon Hill has the Restricted Cup for bowlers of 190 average and under at the beginning of next month, and entry forms have been mailed to all centres but, ask anyone, and they say they don't know about it! What's the answer? Because it's a restricted event, you can't do direct mailing, you have to rely on the centres to promote and place entry forms where bowlers can see them.
In attempts to make Tenpin Bowling an elite sport, have we made it more an 'elitist' sport, discriminating against those who can't afford the escalating costs including the never-ending range of equipment that it seems you have to have if you're going to be competitive.
And you can't use the example of other sports like golf, tennis, even swimming where some players have a perceived advantage by using 'better' equipment - these sports have a much higher profile, attract sponsors, etc so that everything, including prize monies, snowball. They are always going to attract huge fields of competitors because the rewards and recognition are so much greater.
Despite the best efforts of a multitude of people, tenpin bowling does not have this sort of profile. We need the grass roots people in bowling, the ones who just love competing but can't because they can no longer afford it. Likewise, tenpin bowling can't continue catering to the minority or it'll die.

 

[Hedley]

Ken,

I think the Queensland wicket keeper you are talking about was Ray ("Razor") Phillips, who last played for the State in about 1985/86. I think he was a "refugee" from New South Wales, who started his Shield career with that State before seeing the light and moving to the Sunshine State.

Ken, the word picture you paint of the Pro-Ams sounds tremendous. A couple of questions: Why do you think they fell out of favour and what needs to be done to bring them back?

 

[craig]

in another post, re tournament directors, i commented on the brooks family.

To my knowledge, their outlook on tournament bowling was simple, give the bowlers what they want, create harmony at the event and work as hard as possible to ensure that everything ran smoothly.

With their results, you would have to say they worked harder than anyone in the business.

back in the mid 80's. the victorian government allotted funds to promote their 150th birthday, the brooks jumped at it, got it and asked the question, "what does bowling need"

hense the "VIC 150"

victoria had no womens major tournaments, in an era that had guerster, baker, dockery, wallace and co'

first year they had well over 150 entries, people came from everywhere, and for those that saw it, spread the word australia wide, to what a great event it has been.

since then they have changed formats etc etc, the tournament to my knowledge is still successful, but nowhere near as successful as it was, because since the brooks stepped out..............

the format has been manipulated to suit certain groups, thus putting other groups noses slightly out of joint, therefore a slow decline in numbers over the years.

that very first year, people who had no chance of making money, and they knew it, bowled for the sake that it was going to be a great event, you could tell, it was organised and ran to perfection.

and before i get anyones nose out of joint, yes there were others involved in the running of the event, a core group, which i think included di jones , sue raphael and sandi hornibrook just to name a few.

when the brooks ran rachuig it was a packed house, full of people who bowled because it was a tournament, not that they had a chance, or maybe the slimmest of chances, but they competed, because it was fair, make the seven = make the team.

during that period victoria dominated rachuig, so the selection theory doesn't have to be the sure fire way to pick teams

phil brook and alan burge ran the ATBA, when 80+ turned up to every event, they ran youth scholarships, different formats, at different centres, it was simple, finish in the top 3rd and cash, cut bottom double your money, win and 10 times your money, everyone knew and accepted the conditions and bowled in it accordingly, the days of if we get the numbers we will pay the money, never thought to enter anyones mind.

in regards to tony goodwin running the super 8, tony has been on the brooks team before, for those that don't know the guy, have faith in him, the circuit is new, and of course will have creases to iron out, but in the end, he will make it work, its just a shame he has some crappy parametres to work with, example, the oiling machines, although the summit must have been better at the NSW open

 

[Ken S]

Craig

You hit the nail on the head - and also partly answered Hedley's question.

"People who had no chance of making money, and they knew it, bowled for the sake that it was going to be a great event."

This is it in a nutshell - bowling needs to get back the people who competed for the love of the game, the excitment of being in a well-run event and, let's be honest, contributed the money that went towards allowing the higher prize funds to be paid. Because the events were run so professionally, they also often managed to attract some sponsorhip from outside.

We also had Bob Cook's 'Pin Action' and the earlier versions of 'Strike Out' where you get read full tournaments reports - not just results, or a few lines about the winners. Many of those 'regular' bowlers had the chance to see their name in print as part of the 'colourful' reporting - maybe they had competed in that event every year since it started, or done something that made them stand out on the day. They may not have cut, but they were recognised as participants. Then we stopped recognising them at all.

I'm going to stick my neck WAY out here (and maybe have to retire completely earlier than anticipated) - bowling tournaments used to be run for for the bowlers and the betterment of our sport, not just for the lineage. Need I say more?

 

[Ken S]

Hedley

Forgot to mention - the success of Pro-Ams and tournaments was the result of committed people including those like the Brooks, AND the STAFF in the centres where they were held. When I was at Clayfield I had some of the best promotions staff around, who would ALL get behind the tournaments and them a success. We often had a major sponsor but staff would also get around and get smaller sponsors, often locally, for even small awards like lane awards etc. They'd tell them that, over the days of the tournament (and Pro-Am if there was one) we would expect 'x' number of bowlers, plus, often, their families, as well as 'x' number of spectators through the centre.

And (surely everyone remembers this) the Clayfield staff would dress up the centre a week or more before the tournament so that people coming in would ask what was happening. And it wasn't just a few balloons and streamers. For the Sunshine Special, the colour theme was that of the major sponsor and there were big yellow suns, with names of past champions etc, hanging about the centre, with smaller ones all over the place. For the Junior Chamion of Champions, the centre was completely decked out in red and white, Coca-Cola colours, and the same for the Brisbane Cup. By the actual day of the tournament EVERYBODY who had entered that centre during the past week or more - not just those competing - knew what was going to happen. People would turn up to watch to find out what it was all about.

When Clayfield Lanes last hosted both the adult and junior nationals, on both occasions the centre was decorated in all of the state colours across the entire concourse, behind the service desk and in the players area. Paintings of each state's floral emblem were down the walls at each end of the centre and it was mighty colourful.

In all instances, as well as the decorations and signage being useful for promoting the tournaments, when the competitors walked into the centre, it had ATMOSPHERE!!!! They felt that they were walking into something prepared especially for them.

Any bowler who ever competed in the Hawaiian Open at Rockdale will also know what I mean. Joe Farina and Norma Szabo used to have that place looking like a Hawaiian tourist bureau, complete with hula girls. Boy did it have ATMOSPHERE!

Because people,many voluntary, and doing it for the love of the sport, as well as committed centre staff, all banded together to make it work. Bowlers would enter the tournament just to be part of it all - they loved it! For many of them, making a cut was just a somtimes-realised dream, but they just wanted to be there.

And, many of the squads WERE long hauls of 16 games at a time, finishing very late at night and, on occasion, in the early hours of the morning. However, most of the bowlers (especially if they were borderline for the 'cut'), apart from going away for a meal, would be back in the centre, watching the later squads to see if they'd make the final next day. It was part of the game and everybody did it - their socialising was done in large groups, sweating on the scores as they were bowled.

If we don't start putting something back into the sport again instead of taking from it all the time, there will soon be no sport to worry about and all this will become irrelevant.

 

[Magoo]

Hi ken
Great to hear from one of best bowlers/promoters of this game/sport that we all enjoy so much.No i am not kissing butt just saying what should be said.
Maybe AMF would be wise in recruiting some of our past Tournament directors for their knowledge on how to set up and run great events,because apart from the Super 6 this year the only other tournament's that i Know of to have more than 40 bowlers is Mary Flowers Twin tour.One tournament attracted 100+ and here is the strange part this is a tournament for scratch and handicap bowlers who can have a chance to mingle with each other.Just ask anyone who bowls in it what they think and i can bet nothing bad will be said.
anyway enough from me,once again ken good to see you are still you

and for god's sake don't be afraid to let loose on this forum.I am pretty sure you will have a field day in here

Till next time
Tryhard

 

[Ken S]

Hi Gerald

Just thought I'd mention that I DO work for AMF, on a very part time basis, but no longer have much to do with the tournaments (although I will be involved with the Junior Champion of Champions). This is why I commented in one of my earlier posts that my comments may result in me having to retire completely, earlier than expected. But, what the heck!

Craig mentioned that part of the problem is having to work within certain parameters and he's dead right. Another is something that Trev said - centres have to help each other in promotion but they don't.

Also, within each centre, the manager has to motivate the staff so that they all care. I may have been the one thinking up the tournaments in the 'good old days' but, without my staff, including the mechanics, being motivated and willing to get involved, it would all have come to nothing. All our success with tournaments were due as much to their dedication as mine. We didn't always agree, and some days, in the thick of it, they probably would have wished I'd go to hell, but they stuck with it.

If any of our regular bowlers wandered into the centre during prepartion for a tournament they'd often volunteer to help as well. EVERYONE got involved EVERYONE cared.

Maybe it's a vain hope that things could ever be this way again. Maybe it's gone forever and we're just sliding slowly into oblivion.

 

[Hippy??]

Well done Hedley. Yet another great point. More than forty bowlers at a whole three stops. Good on you for pointing this out. I'm sure that Gerry will be shaking in his boots for daring to make such an enormous mistake. You never know, you may get a real life one day.
By the way, you seem to think that Ken's pro ams were a great thing. Well as someone that bowled in them I can tell you that they were.

Still havent answered why it takes longer to bowl 12 games at Hervey Bay than at a national event????????????????

 

[Hedley]

Gerald,

I totally agree with the thrust of your argument but, it should be pointed out that three of the stops on the 2001 Wide Bay Circuit (Caboolture, Maryborough and Toowoomba) have had "more than 40 bowlers". Having said that, the real issue is that the numbers at all five (5) Wide Bay stops so far this year have been well down on last year's corresponding Event and have not been a "patch" on the numbers at Mary's Tournaments.

 

[Graham]

ok guys enough is enough .. i think we have been going around and around here on this subject .. i would prefer if everyone just agreed to disagree and move on .. nothing is getting accomplished.

I think we need .. in both topics .. to get back to what is a fair format for bowlers ..

 

[Andrew S.]

A lot of people seem concerned about money, but only two people (George & Pete) have taken the trouble to post a suggested prizefund breakdown.
As this is one of the areas that also concerns leagues it would be good if we could get some more suggestions. Leagues have similar problems- how to pay reasonable money to the top finishers, and more importantly how to retain players at the bottom end.
Grand Prix at Burleigh used to work with a reasonable percentage system, if anyone can remember it perhaps they could post it here.
Prizefunds at both league and tournament levels should certainly be discussed more, they are a very important part of our sport.

 

[Hippy??]

Graham.... I'm sure that we can all agree to disagree but the important thing is that I'm right isn't it??????? At least that's what I think anyway!!!!

 

[hamo]

I have a question for all.Why are we charged $4 a game in tournments when most centres charge from $3.30 to $3.60 a game for league practise? Also look at the deals for 4 games for the average joe off the street get for rock n bowl nites? I dont know exactly but i feel we are all been taken for a ride!
HAMO

 

[Hippy??]

Good point Tony, lets see a good explaination for that..........

 

[Magoo]

Hi all
Hedley this is not meant to be nasty in anyway,but could you please read the wording of my posts before replying.My words were"...because apart from the Super 6 events the only other tournaments that I KNOW OF to have more than40 bowlers have been Mary Flower's twin tour."Of Course there will tournaments with more than 40 entries I was just typing what I Knew of.Now as i said this not a nasty reply

Till next time
Tryhard

 

[Hedley]

Hi Gerald,

Since one individual, in particular, seems to be getting a bit "hot under the collar", I had better add the same caveat as you did: Gerald, this post is not meant to be nasty in anyway.

Firstly, I should make it clear that I did understand that you were not referring in your post to Tournaments everywhere. I did, however, think from your earlier posts that you had a pretty good knowledge of what is happening here in our "own backyard" of Southeast Queensland. As a result, I mistakenly thought that you would have known what was happening on the Wide Bay Circuit. In fact, I even thought you bowled in the Wide Bay stop at Caboolture, which attracted 57 entries.

However, I am obviously wrong on both points and you are correct to chastise me for believing that you are better informed than you actually are. I apologise and promise to try my best not to make the same mistake again

.

 

[petebowl]

Hamo
I dont answer for any other proprietors, but in answer to your question on game price.
At my centre, the price charged for tournaments is less than what a normal weekend shift would be, so I feel that I support tournament bowling by taking less turnover for the weekend than a "normal" weekend.Also, when I turn the general public away on a tournament weekend I do damage to the business by sending potential customers to my competitors (cinema's,skating, etc).
I am not complaining,and I know competitive bowling is an important part of my business, but at the end of the day I have to turn a profit or there will be no bowling at all in this town.For these and other reasons,I feel $4.00 per game a reasonable price to pay at tournaments.

 

[Magoo]

Hi all
Sorry for the misunderstanding hedley.Yes I did bowl in the one at Caboolture but that was the only one of the grand prix stops that i participated in due to financial reasons.So when i posted what i did i was refering to what I knew at that particular point in time(Freshest memory one could say).
But i would still like people to read the wording in my posts(NOt just you Hedley)and take in the point of what i have said as present text to the best of MY knowledge.
Till next time
Tryhard