Information about drilling for a helicopter bowler

[Gail Torrens]

Hi there - I was wondering if anyone out there has information on layout - and any other information for drilling a ball for a helicopter bowler. I am interested in this subject - Can anyone assist? :shock:

Gail TOrrens

 

[Sumo]

Believe it is usually semi fingertip with a lot of tear drop on the fingers. Most important to get the ball bottom weighted to get the characteristic reverse hook through the pins, otherwise it will be more like an old time spinner.

Sumo

 

[GeorgeF]

I've seen a few and whilst I haven't drilled any, all the ones I had seen had almost the same layout. All had the PIN on the centre of grip of the bowler or very close to it.

Three Key Points about spinners

*1. The Track area of a spinner is usually not too much bigger than a 50 cent piece. Unlike normal bowlers 'Spinners' positive axis point is 13 1/2 inches away from the centre of their Track. What they tend to do is place the top of the weightblock on their PAP so the weightblock is spinning around in a controlled spin.

*2. They only use 10-12lb balls which in todays technology means you will only ever get a pancake weightblock which really won't have too much effect on the result so cores don't really come into play.

*3. Surface doesn't come into play either based on how they bowl, if you see a spinner using a dull ball its because they want to take your oil away from the middle of the lane and you can guarantee your shot will soon dissappear Most bowlers have favourite colours which influence their ball choices, not cores or surfaces or brands :shock:

Spinners are a dying breed, I'd imagine in 10 years there won't be any left!

 

[craig]

hi gail

glenn macfarlane (ncas level 2) adopted the helicopter as his own, researched the ins and outs, and would surely be able to help you out with any inquiries you have.

last i heard he was playing 8-ball in ballarat and was still working for ballarat radio 3BA or whatever it is called now

 

[Gail Torrens]

Helicopter information

Thank you for the information. Since I posted this request I have received a lot of information from people direct to me. Thank you those who reponded on total bowling and also privately. If anyone else is interested I will give you the result of my investigations?

Cheers
Gail

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Gail,

From my experience of helicopter bowlers, the most effective of them seem to get the ball to transition at about 40 - 45 feet where the ball seems to almost spin back on itself, indicating that some thumb weight and negative side weight has been employed.

At FIQ Asian Zone in Qatar, the helicopters were reasonably effective in the masters final, finishing 3rd in the mens and 2nd in the womens as I recall on a reasonably oily condition. Those that were the most effective managed to generate this transition at the 40 to 45 foot mark which enhanced the deflection at the pocket, sending the ball down the picket fence and sending EVERY pin in the rack left, even the 10 pin. This transition sees the ball go from the helicopter to almost a low track reverse spinner. It is quite distracting when you first see it, but very effective.

 

[GeorgeF]

Brenton, Do you relly think thumb and negative weight comes into play in a 10 or 12lb ball? Perhaps the transition you speak of may be the friction point where the backend commences. At the end of the day, drillings for a spinner are almost irrelevant as no manufactuer to date has been able to put a decent core in a 10 or 12lb ball as the core is too heavy.

If you want a 10lb ball to gain more friction or roll earlier you sand it! thats your only option, even then for a spinner that makes almost no difference.

I've spoken to Ron Hoppe about this at length as he was the coach of Singapore for sometime and he was coaching a hand full of spinners including Jasmine Ho probably the Worlds best female spinner.

Ron was of the same view. Drillings and coverstocks were almost irrelevant. If a spinner was bowling bad, Ron would either polish or sand their ball for them but in his words " the changes I made on the ball were irrelevant and a waste of time, for spinners its mental. The bowlers would honestly beleive me doing something to their ball would have an effect then they would start bowling better again ". It was not the ball, it was clearly a small mental hurdle.

I asked Ron from a coaching point of view what do you if a spinner leaves a big four? Rons answer " hit the same target again because there is no way they will leave it again "

I've bowled with a ton of spinners and honestly the drillings all conventional of course were all different. Like I said in an earlier post most spinners go for colour, brand or name. The way someone drills them is almost irrelevant!

 

[Gail Torrens]

helicopter drillings

Thank you for your input Sumo - your remark about bottom weight was justified by the networks of persons I have had contact with - George thank you for your input also - Brenton your observations were spot on and one of the keys of effective outcome of the drillings is the length and the timing of when the ball goes into an end over end roll at the pocket.

George - bottom weight does come into the equation - not all helicopter releases are the same! When I was in Singapore I taped a few styles of helicopter techniques - I saw 4 different methods of exit of the ball from the hand - and each one I saw (who were scoring at the Championships) knew what they were doing and could reproduce their shot. I spoke to some of the ball drillers also - but the information didn't mean much to me at the time as I did not focus on the technical aspects (because I know nothing about these) - My concern at the time was what effect the track produced on the lane and strategies to compensate or override the resulting condition when bowling against a 'team' of helicopter bowlers.

From a coaches perspective using a network of ball drillers I have asked the order of problem solving looking at HOW the ball is delivered prior to and during release and the desired effect at the pins- then they commented on layout.

Surely the first considerations of drilling is first HOW the ball is delivered off the hand! The the layout should compensate or enhance the effect of the release?

Information about what is the impact of the release from the hand First consideration - the fingers and thumb exit the ball at the same time and the direction and amount of hand movement on the top and in some styles in front of the ball is also a consideration.
That is why bottom weight for some spinner styles is effective.
Thumb is down on release.

Static layout edging to negatives - no top weight - maybe even bottom - negative side and thumb - this will reduce the orbital rotation and assist the ball to end over end at the pocket.
Sumos suggestion kicks in here - and correct Brenton.

Watching the bowler also - the coach would note that there is no follow through - just a push at release to result in the desired distance - length of shot the chief concern - Brenton correct.

Pitches suggested 1/8 reverse fingers
1/8 forward on thumb

Deflection is the game for the spinners that is why they bowl with light weight equipment. The common leave would be an 8 pin or late 8 fall with the ball taking the corner pin on a full rack. Accuracy of path of the ball through the heads can be achieved by some but many of the ones I watched were targeting at 50 feet or almost at the pins - so accuracy was high for the bowlers I watched - This is where talking to other coaches was helpful.

Thank you everyone who responded. The information above was given by a network of ball drillers plus a couple of Coaches who are ball drillers - and by putting the question out I have learnt a lot.

Final comment - no style is dead - the lane condition and the lane surface will dictate what type of shot will produce a result. I am greatful that this year was the year of our Men overseas - I think our Ladies are to be congratulated also - Well done. I hope Anne Marie and Brando finish well - best of luck and high scoring.

Thank you.
Gail Torrens

 

[RobbieB]

Gail,
I would imagine that the last thing a helicopter bowler would want would be a transition toward end-over-end roll. Deflection will be maximised when the axis is vertical. The reason for this is that the ball is travelling down the lane like a top - even hitting the headpin dead on results in sideways deflection.
I think bottom weight would tend to stabilise the vertical axis (I might have to draw up the force diagram to be sure though). Finger and side weight, both positive and negative all become identical with a vertical axis - the effect is to shift the center of gravity off of the spin axis, destabilising the spin and causing the ball to 'lope' as it spins.
All this assumes that the axis is actually vertical, or close to it. Is this actually the case for a true helicopter bowler?
Designing a ball specifically to maintain a vertical axis would be interesting.

 

[Gail Torrens]

Helicopter

Hi Rob

Please do not shoot the messenger - these are not my theories of layout - but these are a compilation of 'matched' peices of information from networks in the States and also Australia I have used. I would bet these guys are spot on - because they are good - I mean really good!

Information that matched was compiled and put together. As a coach I would (if I had a bowler that bowled like this) experiment with these components - and work with the bowler and the ball driller to get the best out of equipment and bowler - technique examination plus the ball equation equals success.


I am not the expert - A coach cannot be good at everything - so I network out to persons who's passion is equipment and the 'hand'.

Thankfully there are persons who devote countless hours to experiment and study this aspect of the sport - I love talking to people who know their craft. I have learnt a lot from these persons and I hope I will keep learning. The areas of expertise that I possess I pass on to bowlers to empower them into their own game - that in turn creates a HIgh Performance Bowler. Each has their own network of specialists that assist them.

You put a lot into this sport - you get a lot out of it!

Best wishes
Gail

 

[RobbieB]

Hi Gail,
Not trying to shoot anyone :lol: I really wanted to clarify whether the helicopters really do have a vertical axis or not. That is, does the ball actually spin on one spot, or how big is the track otherwise.

If it is a vertical axis, then side, finger and thumb weights are not distinguishable. That is not a matter of opinion - it is basic physics. Put a ball on a spinner grip up, and spin it - top and bottom weights are on the axis, all others on the equator.

But, I have never seen a helicopter at work.Wgere on the ball do they actually track - and do all helocopters track in the same place?

Just curious.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Rob,

The helicopters I have seen don't all track in the same place. What I posted before re the transition in the rotation is purely from what I have observed in international competition, of which I must admit to limited exposure.

The actual track of helicopters does vary from bowler to bowler, but not that greatly.

George,

I wouldnt mind discussing the relative merits of static balances for helicopters with you and Ron. You state that because they use 10 to 12lb equipment that they cant get anything with decent cores that static weights don't mean anything. I would have thought that because of that, the static imbalance would have been even MORE significant as the dynamic balance of the more advanced cores is not available to them.

Those few helicopters I have drilled for and seen, have in general had most success with thumb weight, negative side weight and bottom weight, as this has provided the transition I posted about earlier.

Now, maybe I am reading too much into what I have observed. Maybe all the coaches and drillers currently working in Asia are over complicating this issue, but from what I have observed and put into practice, they do seem to work.

 

[Asiaspin]

Taipei Spinner

Finally I see people commenting on the difference on the above and the old spinner. The old spinner hook slightly and T spinner back up.

I got some tips on Taipei Spinner from Mr YC Ma, a veteran T Spinner. I would like to clarify certain points about this technique.

First, thumb always exit before the fingers. Second, follow thru is an absolute must.

The diameter of the track area is about 5cm in diameter. Coverstock can make a difference: reactive defect much less than plastic, making the striking pattern totally different. Most T spinner used 11.5 to 12lb reactive ball.