WALTER DE VEER NATIONAL RESTRICTED CHALLENGE

[JWhitty]

...and if that's the best answer you can give to jhk67's question then it probably doesn't concern you much either.

That's a bit harsh, Jan's got a point. If you're not a WDV bowler then it doesn't really matter what it was now, does it...

To answer the question, De Veer is... well, nothing of interest anymore. It was the interstate challenge reserved for bowlers below a certain ability, and now it's been mushed into Intercentre.

De Veer was an event many bowlers entering the sport and many middle average bowlers aspired to compete in, where the competitors had a lot of fun with the competition. History on WDV can be found on TBA's site, I think under records or nationals.

What are the pro's and con's of this...

Well the main gist here is that you can't represent your state now unless you can muscle into the elite Rachuig teams. A huge portion of the bowling community are WDV material, and most will probably now not be able to get a taste of this for several more years if they don't get disheartened by the strength of their zone's Rachuig team. I'm sure a lot of very passionate WDV bowlers will gladly list con's for you if you want more

Personally I was never eligible for De Veer, but I support them here and now because I can't see that it's a good move for our sport killing the popular tournament that a vast majority of our community want to be in, or can realistically be part of.

Honestly with some of the probable outcomes looming on the horizon, I might hang up my competitive shoes and dig the old darts out again

 

[kahlua_666]

Well Well Well, I really didnt want to get into this on Totalbowling but remarks from DUNRYC just made me do it. You obvoiusly have no idea about bowling and friendships. I feel sorry for you. We can do without people slagging the sport like you. De Veer bowlers have made so many friendships over the years. They have pride in what they represent. They may not be the best but they are the best of friends and it was one of the best tournaments going. I am very proud to be a part of bowling and I will continue to do so. The tournament is not done and dusted yet. There are too many passionate De Veer bowlers out there that will not let this one go. If you dont like De Veer leave it alone and let everyone else get on with it. This will probably come back to haunt me but I will not let people just brush this aside as if we dont count.
Pam Turner

 

[weggy]

Some great thought has gone into this idea from Max. I agree with everything in the proposal and I'm disappointed that it wasn't accepted. The average brackets might have been hard to police, not to mention 'sandbagging'...
.

 

[Bowling Balls Australia]

The main three problems with the transition of bowlers from DeVeer to Rachuig are

a) Lack of promotion at league level, which in turn falls back on the state bodies for not promoting the grade to the average league bowler as per the comments of jhk67. Many bowlers do not even know there is a National tournament each year. Those who have competed are well involved in the bowling scene, or have heard about the tournament as a by-product of events such as the Restricted Cup.

b) The transition is too big from DeVeer to Rachuig apart from for those bowlers who are on a steep improvement curve, ie youth bowlers or late bloomers who have some natural talent. This is why in my suggestion to TBA there was a "Classic Cup", which would be an ideal grade for bowlers to progress through on their way from DeVeer to Rachuig.

c) The "drop out rate" of bowlers who have surpassed DeVeer and who are simply not ready for Rachuig. I personally know of several who are now lost to "Nationals" as of 2007 for this reason alone, and once they have a taste of the extra money at Christmas or the holiday interstate with their family, once, you have no hope of getting them back, EVER.

The general idea of the tournament is very sound, the way it was used by some bowlers is not in the best interests of the sport. However, I can see why it was used this way by some. Many bowlers of 'average' ability love the friendships gained by the event, and very much look forward to their annual pilgramage to Nationals to renew and strengthen those friendships. An example of their genuineness is the FANTASTIC night at the DeVeer dinner this year as compared to the humdrum of the Rachuig dinner - there was absolutely no comparison.

The people I have met over the past 2 Nationals tournaments who bowl DeVeer are some of the most genuine and delightful people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. The ONLY negative with some of these people is that they do not transpire to move on to Rachuig for one of two reasons
a) they do not have the talent and honestly accept that fact
b) the gulf is too big between the two grades

What we need to accept as a bowling community is that practice, top of the range equipment & money will not enhance every bowler to a 'card average', as much as we would all like that to be the case. There is a genuine place for DeVeer and it should be recognised as a "State Team", but we should be making sure by the right promotion and selection methods that as many as possible of our better 'restricted grade' bowlers are competing.

Jan, an example of this "State Team" tag is the SANFL/VFL state game each year, sure - it is not AFL State of Origin, but it is State v State and the players are representing their state......

Again Jan, you are right in the fact there are many DeVeer bowlers who don't set the world alight, and who can cause those kinds of remarks you speak of, but it is not the bowlers' fault, nor is it the fault of the 'grade'. More to the point it is the faults as I have mentioned above, ie team selection/event promotion AND the gulf between DeVeer/Rachuig - quite simply for the vast majority of bowlers, there is nowhere to go after DeVeer, so they elect to stay in their comfort zone and unless the State bodies to something to recruit some new competitors and take some of the current bowlers out of that zone, that is where they will stay - because they love the friendships.

A real concern I have now is that "Nationals" is going to be a very small tournament as far as participation goes. I can not see the new DeVeer format being successful, I for one will not take any time or inject any of my hard earned money into the Victorian economy next year for the DeVeer period. If I want to see team bowling of that level I can go to my local centre on a Wednesday night. The end result will be a smattering of people at Altona for a couple of days before the better bowlers arrive for a few days of Rachuig and Masters.

Last point Jan, corporate sponsorship will be even harder to get now - why would a corporation be more inclined to spend money on exposure to 200 bowlers for a week when in the past they have had the opportunity for exposure to 500 odd people over 3 weeks?

On behalf of the bowling community at large, I implore the TBA and respective state bodies to reconsider their decision. At worst, return it to it's previous concept, or even better, consider a revised concept - you already have a vaild proposal on the table !!

Max Bastian

 

[Ice]

If my knowledge of the history of De Veer is correct then it was originally designed to be a stepping stone to Rachuig. However along the way this event with rule changes etc became a farce. For example the very rules brought in to prevent sandbagging encouraged it, and to be honest I for one was not suprised at all, it was pretty clear from the moment I read those new rules it was a silly decision and not going to fix anything. I remember when the coach and team I was representing in 2005 first discovered the new rules about re grading after all events. We realised then and there that there would be some who would not give 100% effort in their championship events to avoid average re grading and gain an advantage. Initially I feared being sat on the bench if I bowled well in championships and my average was re graded and I feared it would be all but impossible to win a point if we were the only team who 'did the right thing'. However, every single person in that team did do the right thing and were supported 100% by our coach who was proud of us for being true to ourselves. We didn't do very well that year, and although we could hold our heads high knowing we did the right thing and did our best, for me De Veer lost it's shine that year as I felt it was no longer a fair playing field. There were other little things along the way that helped this along....like a comment that De Veer did not need lanes re oiled at lunch like Rachuig as there were no bowlers at De Veer that can hook a ball in order to need it. For a long time being a De Veer bowler has meant being treated second class. Another example of this is a conversation I had with someone about a partciular bowler who achieved something pretty special during 2006 De Veer and the response I got appalled me......."Oh, who cares it was only in De Veer!" Like somehow it didn't count?!! This young person, if she continues to work hard, will step up to Rachuig in the future and I am sure she gained valuable experience through participating in De Veer, however I do wonder if she felt the attitude of some towards De Veer and I sincerely hope she rises above that to move onto Rachuig.

My point is I am not sad to see the end of De Veer in it's current form, which I consider to lack the respect, support and encouragement of so many. I am sure I have said it before and I will say it again..........If you want to ensure the growth of this sport and encourage bowlers to improve and excel make De Veer a part of this.

My thoughts for what they are worth (probably nothing) are to make De Veer a scratch event with a restricted entering average, nothing more than a Restricted Rachuig. Find a way to make De Veer work for the benefit of the growth of this sport. Take these bowlers and coach them and support and encourage them to improve. Make De Veer something to be proud of. Get the Rachuig bowlers to take these bowlers under their wings, after all you are playing for the same State, maybe you could even get Rachuig to share the training sessions with these bowlers, I am sure they have plenty of valuable knowlege and experience to share.

Yeah ok, I am laughing too....never going to happen is it........ahhh in a perfect world.

 

[strop]

Certainly a lot of passionate people out there when it comes to a yearly tournament like Deveer, and I do mean yearly. Isn't it?
I am not sure if I want to be looked at as the best Handicap Team bowler in the country although I don't think most people would care about it either. I'm still not sure I agree with the assumption that a 140 ave bowler who can make the Deveer team will one day make the Rachuig team based on the one tournament. Possibly...... Bowling Rachuig was being the best in the state (though not these days), many of us feel there is too much crap from TBA to bowl in it and we are being alienated by them, so many don't bother.
However if people want this kind of tournament (and obviously many do) then why not? It's not hurting anybody, it's fun, it's a damn good get together once a year, but as far as being a stepping stone to Rachuig, you need to do more during the year than to just have one tournament, same as having an in between stage tournament "Classic Cup", again you can have 10 in between stages. Still not sure if that's need.
This is why I miss ATBA and to the handicap bowler who just quite didn't make ATBA they had SAMBA. Lot's of tournament practise locally which helped a lot of bowlers put SA on the map as being competitive. Still it didn't help all, you either have it or you don't and all the equipment will not make it for you, although "Reactive's" have made a few look good.
To help people to make transitions to Rachuig it's going to take a lot more that one tournament a year. Although the gap between DeVeer and Rachuig is rapidly closing (thanks to Rachuig).
But it sounds like fun as the tournament goes so keep it the way it was intended.
Cheers
Tony

 

[jhk67]

Thanks now I understand it.

 

[pixie]

I can only say having read all the posts that I am completely appalled at some people's attitudes. Yes, there are people who have been in the team year after year, does that mean that they are not good enough to make a state team? no, it just means that nobody else is better. Is this their fault? Perhaps it is more the fault of some of the state boards for not promoting the sport better and for having the old "it is only de veer" attitude and therefore not as important as Rachuig. As for de veer not being a stepping stone, I know of at least, 4 women I have bowled de veer with who have moved on to Rachuig, surely this shows that it is a stepping stone when handled correctly. As for the comments of "I could do better than that" surely that is what the competition is all about, if people believe they could do better than that then show up and qualify, you just may do better and make a state team. Who ever heard of "B grade" not being good enough to represent their state - does that mean that the only people in the "Wallabies" have to be in the A Grade team and cannot come from the Reserves, what about Australia B cricket side - they represent their country, not just their state and they are not considered A Grade!!!.

Not all of us can improve and become Rachuig bowlers overnight, as not all of us are retirees with unlimited financial resources, nor do we manage a bowling centre and get to practice whenever we wish. Some of us work 10-12 hours a day, have a mortgage and children and with the cost of the sport can only do so much. Some of us have physical restrictions that will only allow us to improve so far and no further. I am so tired of hearing people slag off de veer as being people who don't care and don't want to improve. I, myself, through bowling de veer have managed to improve upwards of 30 pins in my average and would like to continue, but cost and time do play a huge part. I could probably qualify for my state's Rachuig team, but am I ready to play? not sure, I do know that through de veer I become a little more seasoned and would therefore feel more confident.

If you don't like de veer, fine, but back off unless you have played and fully understand what it takes to make a state team and keep up the pressure of actually winning.

Think the new format would be truly interesting - you could realistically end up with the finals being made up of 5 Victorian teams and two from interstate, is that really the path we want to go down?

 

[edfleminglanes]

Great statement Pixie and Max your proposal is worth looking at althou I have some reservations about the averages etc. However most bowlers forget that Walter De Veer has been the most successful tournament run by TBA in the last 5 years. Yes the bowlers may not qualify for Rachuig but who cares these bowlers have more fun, get more involved when they meet up at each nationals and promote the Sport of Tenpins a lot more then some of our so called Elite bowlers. These so called "B Grade" Bowlers actually plan their 10 - 14 days stay at the Nationals, they also support all the other events that TBA put on something our elite bowlers do not. If the National Championships are to be successzful you will need the support of all the bowlers who can not make Rachuig for one reason or another. This year the Seniors are having their National Challenge in WA so again this has taken away from what the nationals are all about bringing all bowlers from every state regardless of averages to the Nationals and having the chance to win an Australian Title in their division. I think some of our Elite bowlers and so Called Elite officials forget that most bowlers came from the lower ranks and worked their way up the Bowling Ladder. However not all became elite bowlers, there are a lot of 190 average bowlers who will never make a Rachuig team,but these same bowlers should be encouraged to try and qualify for Walter De Veer or any other event that allows them to compete against their own lot and hopefully get the urge to improve and step up for open events.

Instead of replacing Walter De veer with something that will not encourage new bowlers onto the national scene, maybe TBA should have looked at how WDV was set up and made some minor changes with regards to averages which would have suited most bowlers and officials.What amazes me is that the Tournament Team obviously had no say in the new format for WDV.

Maybe the bowlers should re-format TBA and get rid of all the dead wood, dont have any paid employees (salary savings could go towards paying the Tournament Team) thereby having a successful Nationals. (Ah sorry people I am dreaming again).

Well it would seem that the only format for nationals from now on will be Rachuig, so our nationals will run for 6 days and cater for the so called elite.
So we get back to centres not wanting to support having the Nationals and instead will promote social bowling and bigger profits.(this time I am not dreaming)

Why is it that whenever something is successful we have others trying to pull it apart and replace it with something else. Why change something that has been a winner. Yes we all know there have been some hic ups but these should have been worked out involving all the State Associations. Not the appointed State Managers but the State Associations who do a lot of hard work with no real thanks from bowlers.

To finish, I was originally involved with Daryl Holt and his vision has been twisted over the years by certain people on the TBA board. My average was never low enough to bowl De Veer yet I have had a great time in coaching the Victorians and have made a lot of friends over the years. It is very sad that TBA have reduced this event to a hit and giggle show with no bragging rights and no motivation for our bowlers to be part of the Nationals. Chucky's comments with regards to cost versus winnings says it all. WHY BOTHER.....

Maybe we as centre operators should put all our energies into Social Bowling, Hot Dog deals and Birthday Parties because ovviously TBA are not interested in promoting our great game to our main stream bowlers.
If I have upset anyone "Bad Luck" I have got to the stage where as manager I might as well say what I think, "you the bowlers do" and TBA well enough said.

 

[Chucky]

TBA if they read this must know by now that they ruined a good thing.. what i am wondering is what is the chance that a TBA official will post on here on what the motivation was to dump deveer and bring this farce in. Inform us as to WHY we should pay so much to bowl in a tourny not worth it and what incentive there really is.

They probably work off well hey people payed $100s to play deveer before with no return so why should this be any different..

Well before it was bowling for your state. I bowled deveer twice and went to my third natioanals to support friends and bowl in the old intercentre challenge. Even though i was at the top end of the avgs and now am to hi for deveer i would always have supported it. both deveers i was in i had hi avg but bowled like cr@p but i was still over the moon cause i had the opportunity to bowl for my state. something untill i took up bowling i never thought i could achieve. And it was a great feeling and i put my all into it.. even though it was "B" grade if you want to call it that. My family and extended famil where proud of me cause i made a state team, i had 5+ people come to each nationals i was in to support me (and a reason to shop lol) but it felt great pulling on for me SQ jersey and and being part of my state infront of people i love.. I know many people on this site know the exact feeling. I just feel sorry for all the new bowlers who will never know what it feels like. never have the opportunity to be a STATE bowler.

This new tourney will be a muck around that really means nothing to any one.. As i said above i now have bowled 3 intercentre challenges at nationals. each one was an excuse to have some fun and bowl at nationals with my mates(local brissy bowlers who were not in state teams but we went to the nationals to support bowling). it didnt mean anything. All events and deveer was what meant something to me.

I will probably still go to nationals cause i enjoy it and to me it means something but it will to go bowl all events and support the rachuig guys and that will be it unless this farce changes.

edited to fix spelling lol

 

[strop]

Interesting reading Joe, although I'm confused about a few comments.
You quoted

However not all became elite bowlers, there are a lot of 190 average bowlers who will never make a Rachuig team,but these same bowlers should be encouraged to try and qualify for Walter De Veer or any other event that allows them to compete against their own lot and hopefully get the urge to improve and step up for open events.

Joe correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't know a 190 Ave bowler could bowl DeVeer?
Mind you 190 ave bowlers currently would make our SA Rachuig Teams ...no problem at all.
I suppose without the DeVeer challenge the Nationals will revert back to the way they were for Decades?
Step backwards? .....sure.
You also quoted

This year the Seniors are having their National Challenge in WA so again this has taken away from what the nationals are all about bringing all bowlers from every state regardless of averages to the Nationals and having the chance to win an Australian Title in their division.

In regards to Seniors well you really shouldn't include them as I'm not entirely sure they designed themselves to be included as part of the TBA nationals system. Although if it was it would be good, but they like to spread themselves around Australia unlike the TBA system where it comes back to "MONEY" and yes lets have it in "VICTORIA" again for the 3rd time in 8 years. Bring back the rotation system!!
Most of what you say Tom I agree with up to a point.
As far as PIXIE's comment with her improvement of 30 pins in average, would you say that was entirely credited to the yearly tournament of DeVeer or a combination of things?
Just curious, if I bowled in a tough centre and averaged 179 for a season, with most people knowing I was capable of much better, would I be allowed to bowl DeVeer or is there a rule which would exclude me.?
Cheers
Tony

 

[pixie]

You are quite right in suggesting the improvement is a combination of things, not just bowling in a tournament once a year - but de veer is not just a once a year tournament. There is qualifying tournaments, then practice sessions as a team, state challenges (in ACT we have a challenge where de veer, seniors, Youth, Rachuig and Shield all compete against each other). There is also the State championships which must be bowled in order to qualify for the following year's state teams, not to mention the All Events at the Nationals. So, no it is not just a once a year tournament, however, without that impetus to improve, all those other events would not have been open to me, just the weekly league.........Would imagine the same goes for most people. De Veer is NOT just a once a year event, though it is a great one, or at least it was. Who wants to travel halfway across the country to play 8 games at $9 a game?????

 

[strop]

Chucky, you quoted

I just feel sorry for all the new bowlers who will never know what it feels like. never have the opportunity to be a STATE bowler.

You mean a "RESTRICTED STATE TEAM BOWLER" don't you !!

To me "STATE BOWLER" is the best of the best no a 110 ave bowler who pull out some good games on the day.

There can only be "ONE STATE TEAM" (Whether they be elite or not Ha! Ha!) the rest is either restricted, senior, handicap etc...

Cheers

Tony

 

[Fr33ze]

There can only be "ONE STATE TEAM" (Whether they be elite or not Ha! Ha!) the rest is either restricted, senior, handicap etc...
Cheers
Tony

Good point strop, but i think it's pretty clear that we are talking about Graded bowlers here and not the Elite of the Elite OPEN Bolwers.

So keep an open mind that not everyone is an open bowler and there needs to be a format to cover other people who for what ever reason, want to either bowl for fun or people who want to improve there game and move up a step.

Peter

 

[JAY K]

Great statement Pixie and Max your proposal is worth looking at althou I have some reservations about the averages etc. However most bowlers forget that Walter De Veer has been the most successful tournament run by TBA in the last 5 years. Yes the bowlers may not qualify for Rachuig but who cares these bowlers have more fun, get more involved when they meet up at each nationals and promote the Sport of Tenpins a lot more then some of our so called Elite bowlers. These so called "B Grade" Bowlers actually plan their 10 - 14 days stay at the Nationals, they also support all the other events that TBA put on something our elite bowlers do not. If the National Championships are to be successzful you will need the support of all the bowlers who can not make Rachuig for one reason or another. This year the Seniors are having their National Challenge in WA so again this has taken away from what the nationals are all about bringing all bowlers from every state regardless of averages to the Nationals and having the chance to win an Australian Title in their division. I think some of our Elite bowlers and so Called Elite officials forget that most bowlers came from the lower ranks and worked their way up the Bowling Ladder. However not all became elite bowlers, there are a lot of 190 average bowlers who will never make a Rachuig team,but these same bowlers should be encouraged to try and qualify for Walter De Veer or any other event that allows them to compete against their own lot and hopefully get the urge to improve and step up for open events.
Instead of replacing Walter De veer with something that will not encourage new bowlers onto the national scene, maybe TBA should have looked at how WDV was set up and made some minor changes with regards to averages which would have suited most bowlers and officials.What amazes me is that the Tournament Team obviously had no say in the new format for WDV.
Maybe the bowlers should re-format TBA and get rid of all the dead wood, dont have any paid employees (salary savings could go towards paying the Tournament Team) thereby having a successful Nationals. (Ah sorry people I am dreaming again).
Well it would seem that the only format for nationals from now on will be Rachuig, so our nationals will run for 6 days and cater for the so called elite.
So we get back to centres not wanting to support having the Nationals and instead will promote social bowling and bigger profits.(this time I am not dreaming)
Why is it that whenever something is successful we have others trying to pull it apart and replace it with something else. Why change something that has been a winner. Yes we all know there have been some hic ups but these should have been worked out involving all the State Associations. Not the appointed State Managers but the State Associations who do a lot of hard work with no real thanks from bowlers.
To finish, I was originally involved with Daryl Holt and his vision has been twisted over the years by certain people on the TBA board. My average was never low enough to bowl De Veer yet I have had a great time in coaching the Victorians and have made a lot of friends over the years. It is very sad that TBA have reduced this event to a hit and giggle show with no bragging rights and no motivation for our bowlers to be part of the Nationals. Chucky's comments with regards to cost versus winnings says it all. WHY BOTHER.....
Maybe we as centre operators should put all our energies into Social Bowling, Hot Dog deals and Birthday Parties because ovviously TBA are not interested in promoting our great game to our main stream bowlers.
If I have upset anyone "Bad Luck" I have got to the stage where as manager I might as well say what I think, "you the bowlers do" and TBA well enough said.

Joe , could not have said this better myself as you know most of this will fall on deaf ears (ALEX)

Jeanette

 

[squealer]

TBA please listen to what we are all saying. De Veer is a fantastic event bringing all the states together every year for a great 3 days of fun, laughter and comradship, playing a sport that we all love. De Veer bowlers have great sportsmanship and so many friendships that have been built between the states over the years. I for one am not good enough at the moment for the next step up and frankly do not even know if l would be interested if we are going to be treated like we are at the moment from our elite bowlers. What short memories a lot of them have. Keep De Veer and the fun and laughter for the bowlers who know how to have a good time and ENJOY their sport. Well done Joe on your comments and l am one of the ex-de veer that WILL NOT bowl this year. Come on all of you De Veer bowlers and have your say about them taking away De Veer. Were WE THE BOWLERS asked how we felt about this?
Sue Wheeler

 

[stew]

Were WE THE BOWLERS asked how we felt about this?

It doesn't seem to matter a hell of a lot what "THE BOWLERS" want, does it?

I am one of those people who's average was too high for DeVeer and not quite good enough to compete at a scratch level (anyway I wouldn't have wasted my time trying out for SA Rachuig because of all the extra "stuff" you have to commit to.)

I think anyone who wants to try out and represent their state at whatever level should be given the opportunity. If people are happy with the "old" DeVeer system then why as usual do the "powers that be" feel the need to fix something which isn't broken?

But then again, what would I know??????????

Stacey.

 

[razdazz]

i am a ex walter der ver bowler who is very angry at the powers, who think they know what there talking about in axeing this great tournament. if it stays the way they have put it this year i will boycott it as well as the championships they wont get any money out of me and every body i have spoken to. say the same thing, to me that sounds realy crazy what can you people be thinking Alex.this has been the best tournament yes its had its good and bad times but realy i think you should rethink what you people have done and leave it alone.ok im only one bowler but i will never be good enough to bowl rachug beleive me there is a lot of us out there and we get on a bit of a high playing for our state.and the freinds we meet along the way.a very angry bowler. Daryl

 

[johnnybg]

Ok,,,,heres my 2 cents worth

[There can only be "ONE STATE TEAM" (Whether they be elite or not Ha! Ha!) the rest is either restricted, senior, handicap etc.../QUOTE]

You mean a "RESTRICTED STATE TEAM BOWLER" don't you !!

We as Deveer bowlers know that we are not "THE State Team"
Yes we also know we are the "RESTRICTED STATE TEAM"

And everybody that i know,i tell them that exact same thing,but we are still playing for our state at the Nationals,even if it is "The Interstate Restricted Challenge".

Everybody that has had a chance to play in this event has walked away with such an absolute rush,which in my opinion has improved the chances of Tenpin Bowling surviving in Australia,because it brings people from all over Australia,an all walks of life,to have fun for 1 week of the year(if you include the actual Nationals events,Intercentre Challenge,an Welcome Squad Tournament as well) instead what we have now,is a chance for it to go backwards.because no one will want to be involved in such an event which the TBA want to bring in,i for 1 wont be bothering.
The Deveer bowlers have just as much passion for the game as Rachuig do,an if all you "ELITE" think that we dont give a sh*t when we lose,then you obviously havent seen too many Deveer games.

An i was just wondering,,WHY DO WE NEED TO CHANGE IT AT ALL,

If people want to up to Rachuig,thats great,but why stop everyone else from bowling in such a great tournament,you cant force people to do anything they dont want to do,maybe at the start the intentions were for the best,but i dont think that applies anymore.

just my 2 cents

johnnyb

 

[strop]

Break away from the TBA and hold your own. You don't need them. I agree the event would be enjoyable to all that bowl in it.
There's nothing stopping you all from doing this.

Cheers

Tony