Is Rachuig the best system

Belly

Belly
I would be interested in bowlers opinion on this subject. Over the years I have bowled in Rachuig, East Coast, Dunn Sheild, Seniors Challenge.

In that time I must admit that the Seniors system where every member of the team is required to bowl 10 of 21 games is a very good system.

Bowling Rachuig making the team then going away and getting only a couple of games to me is not a good TEAM system. I have been in the position of getting only a few games and it doesn't feel good.

Here is the question is it better to be part of a winning team and play only a couple of games, or be part of a losing team and everyone all plays an equal part.

I think ever team member should bowl at least half the games 9 minimum.
 
Agreed

We discussed the same thing at golf today.

All bowlers should be required to bowl a set number of games. As I see it that then makes the managers work to determine when they bowl someone who may be struggling rather than getting 5 going and then sitting back.

I further believe this would then prove the strongest state and best coaches as they would need to get 7 bowlers performing.

The down side is whether you then lose anyone who would be annoyed at having to sit out.
 
That makes good sense. It's no fun explaining to a first timer that he or she may not even get to bowl.
It also removes any possibility of bias by the coach. And add that to the fact that competitors are asked to pay up to $2000 for the few days away. I know I would be pretty upset if I paid that much money and only got 1 or 2 games.
A lot of pressure is going on the State bodies to adopt a first 7 past the post selection method. The argument being that it is the fairest way to select a team. To guarantee those same bowlers a minimum number of games also equates to fairness. A lot of the Bowling rules are in need of revision, its time we came out of the dark ages and I thoroughly agree with the 2 previous posts.
 
Certainly works well for Dunn and Emerson Shield, still think it would give SA country cup a shot in the arm too!
 
After being manager for the first time on the weekend at Emerson Shield I would have to say that I am still a fence sitter as to where it fits in.

I agree that each bowler having to bowl at least half the games is good for the team bonding and good for the sport espicially the 'virgins' of which we had 3 to gain valuable experience afer all they are the future generations.

I have also been in a team where 4 bowlers bowled every game and the other games were shared between the remaining 3 team members - We won and they still got their champions medals.

Is one team member more important than another - No together they are the team as individuals they are nothing

Does a footballer refuse a grand final medal after sitting on the bench for the entire game - I would think not.

Would he be dirty on the coach if they loss - I would think so

If we were made to bowl a minimum number of games would this reduce the team numbers from 7 to 6 to exploit the rule.
It could happen as there was a number of drafts in Rachiug this year.

Does one person suddenly become unfit to bowl after they are not "performing" to their potential? - I say this tounge in cheek as for every genuine case there will be suspect cases

It has not been a problem in Emerson - yet due to the sportsmanship shown between the teams but this is one way to exploit the rules if it possibly meant the difference between winning and losing.

Under the current Rachuig system you are unrestricted to your lineup which means you put in your best team possible for the conditions that are present. If the team wins then the people that miss out on games are still happy to recieve their medals - If the team loses then all hell can break loose

In closing whilst the two systems have advantages and disadvantages I dont think that either one is significantly beter than the other. I am quite happy to bowl in a tournament with eiher format
 
Woza wrote..
Is one team member more important than another - No together they are the team as individuals they are nothing

I too can see the pros and cons of each system but I ask this question about that statement above.....Why do we have individual points then?
 
If you want the stronger states to dominate Rachuig from now on, then legislate a minimum number of games for each player. THe states with the depth will be able to play all seven players with minimal effect on the teams scoring ability. For the smaller states who don't have the depth, they will be penalised for more heavily for not being able to play their best 5 for the maximum games.

You might as well have a 2 division Rachuig. NSW V Vic in the first division and the rest in the 2nd. Sorry, if you want to ruin Rachuig totally then this would be a good way to do it.
 
Sean

As a team you are bowling for 7 points overall. 5 individual 2 for the overall.
Only the team can win the overall - if you win every overall generally you are going to win the tournament.
As an individual there will be games where you cannot win your point but if you can contribute enough pins for the team to win the overall then surely 2 points is better than none
 
As an individual there will be games where you cannot win your point but if you can contribute enough pins for the team to win the overall then surely 2 points is better than none

I agree, in fact I consider these games to be worth 2 points, because they are the games that win you the team game.

Jason Waters shot 251 against Brenton Davy's 300 in round 2, but this 251 was what won us the team game. Without the 251 the result would have been 4-3 instead of 6-1. In the eventual washup, this one game made the difference between NZ getting 4th overall instead of 5th - even though it didn't win any head to head points.

Personally, I think that making each team member bowl a minimum number of games would be a bad thing. I would like to see my team field it's best 5 bowlers at all times without restrictions, and I would want any teams I bowl against to do the same. Any victories against teams that have been weakened to allow all bowlers a minimum no. of games wouldn't feel as good, and if we lost a close game because our team had been 'weakened' that would feel really bad.

I know it's tough on bowlers that only bowl a few games, but their support of the team effort when not bowling is still very important.

David.
 
I like this topic very much, and am totally in favor of the idea of a minimun number of games.

I apologise right now for the length of what l write. :)

At the moment to make all star you need to bowl 2/3 of the games, and this then restricts the bolwers that dont get the chance to bowl that many games to be able to achive this personal feat.

From my own point of view, my other half has just competed in her second Rachuig, and l think it may have been her last. Yes she was in the team that finished second, but when the coaches and managers of the team, just leave you on the bench for the entire time, and wont even advise you why, then l feel this is wrong. She was happy to be part of the victory, but has this feeling that she really did not contribute to the team, as she only bowled 4 games for the event. I mean we were luckly this year, it was in our home state, and the costs were down, but with te cost normally around the $1500 mark, that is 4 very expensive games to bowl ($375 per game). At this point for her 2 representations in the team she has now bolwed a total of 7 out of 39 games. not exactly something to endure you to what to bowl again. It was 8 years between tryouts, and she has made it on both occasions.

By the time you look at time of work, travel, food, nationals, and everything else, this can really add up, and to think that you may not get a game at all, then it is no wonder that states are struggling for numbers in years that they need to travel some distance. I am sure that part of the reason Victoria had a good turn out for the trials was that it was in home state, and peope felt it would be cheaper, and it was by a long way from previous years.

If the bolwers are required to a bowl say a min 1/2 the number of games, then does this not mean that the best state will win. Meaning the team that is able to put perform the best, not only with the bowling, but the coaches, the managers, and all involved.

Brenton Davy, said that we may as well make 2 divisions, if this is the case, WHY l ask. It is not a pinfall tournament, it is head to head, and anything can, and usually does in this type of format.

This would make the coaches & mangers work harder at making sure that they had their line ups correct, and were aware of what other teams were doing, other bolwers, who was on fire, and who was not.

I mean Brenton, if you have a bolwer not doing so well, why not throw them in the deep end against the bowler that is leading the ALL STAR TEAM, as you never know they just may get up and win, and you shoudl know that a lower average bowler is very capple of beating a higher average, as for some reason a number of bowlers to what thier oponents are bowling at the time, and not thier own game.

I say bring in the rule of minimum number of games, and it may help prevent the need for the draft, as people maybe willing to bowl as they will be sure of getting games, unlike now, when you payout all this money and may get nothing.

My other thought is that everyone says this is a team effort, but l am hearing a lot of the best 5 bowlers being allowed to bowl, and the others can miss out, not really a team then, as it 5 & 2, not 7. Why bother taking the team of 7 at all, oh thats right the rules say so, but this way you dont really need them at all. If it is a team of seven then all members should be an equall go as this is truly a team. Maybe go as far as to say all members must bowl exactly the same numbre of games, but that is to far out thier for most people.

Just my thoughts.
 
Some interesting thoughts.

However, in any team I have been involved in, it has ALWAYS been made known to us that it is about winning. If you don't get many games, its nothing personal, its about getting the best lineup out there.

Now, having said that, I am aware of occassions in the past where there has been instances of players being left out for reasons other than their bowling ability. Egoes will always play a part as will human nature.

However, that having been said, Rachuig (of which I am very passionate) is about trying to be the pre-eminent state, zone or territory (or country now NZ have joined us). As a result you put your best lineup out there and have at it.
 
Woza I can understand what you are saying in your second post. In your first post you said as Individuals they are nothing. Thats why I asked if they are nothing then why do we have individual points?

You also wrote
Only the team can win the overall - if you win every overall generally you are going to win the tournament.

That quote is just a load of horse manure. 4pts - 3pts all day at Rachuig is not going to win you the tournament. Sure the 2pts for the overall can sometimes make a difference between a win and a loss but if you win every team overall it certainly doesn't give you the title. Maybe that's why you said GENERALLY, I don't know. Also who is to say that you can win the overall and still not lose 3pts - 4pts?

Again my main point is you said as individuals they are nothing. Well if it wasn't for that INDIVIDUAL that bowled the 251 game then the team wouldn't have benefited. A team is made up of individuals and when the individuals perform then the team performs.
 
i dont see any reason in this topic to change anything.in my first two years of rachuig i bowled only twelve games.the second one i only got three games and we won which i beleive is what we are there to do.it makes you strive to be better and make an impact next time.i am pretty sure if you ask paul trotter how many games he got in his first couple of years as well it would not be many,we both love this event it is the highlight of our year and see no need to stuff with it because people dont get many games get over it. :lol:
this year the least amount of games someone got in our team was six and we won i explained to them why they were sittting out and they understood it was best for the team.
it is upto the captain to use the team to the best of its abilities and unfortunately sometimes people dont get many games.
BAD LUCK. :shock:
i said to my team before we started that this is not a competition about how many games you get it is about representing your state and doing it proud as a team so next time you have any thoughts about how many games you bowl i have one peice of advice dont bowl this is not an induividual event.


mac stewart
 
Sean

I think that we have gotten off track in relation to the topic.

Beanie summed it up well in an earlier post. Jason 251 against the 300 enabled his team to win the overall and in the end made the difference between 4th and 5th.

I agree with you when you say 3-4 points all day wont win u Rachuig. But I'd like to see the odds on a team winning every overall and only getting 3-4 points all day.

I know that when I bowl in a team environment the aim of the team is to win every overall - guaranteed 3 points +. If you win your individual point then that is a bonus.
This is not to say that you go out to lose, You always go out to win but you never know when the next 300 is around the corner.
If you approach the game in a manner that if you can not win your individual point then at least give your 4 team mates a chance to win the overall.
Surely it is better to lose 1 to win 2 - than to lose all 3

I also agree with you that a team is made up of individuals and when every individual performs then the team performs.

When the team bowls as individuals then do you still have a team. I'd say No

Maybe I was abit harsh in saying that as individuals they are nothing and if you have taken offence to that statement then I am sorry but then again I don’t know of any INDIVIDUALS that have won Rachuig or any other team event for that matter.
 
I have to completely agree with everything that David Davies
said (Beanie).
This is the premier team event in the country and i want to know that if we win we have played the best from each state and NZ that was available for that game.
We can discuss the ins and outs of team line ups forever and
there will always be some unlucky people who miss games
that they should have bowled....but what seems to be an overriding issue from the posts above is the cost, if someone
only gets a few games. Thus i would suggest that each state association works on more fundraising activities thus making the cost to bowl Rachuig a little lower.
There is another side to this argument about minimum numbers of games for people....how about this one...if i am scoring the house down and someone else in the team isnt doing so well....i have paid the same money as the other person and i sure as hell dont want to be FORCED to sit on the bench and possibly see a victory go down the drain. I guess we are a little furtunate in Victoria to always have 7 players of good
solid ability to sub in and out but the point is still valid....forcing a high averaging player (who ever it is) to sit out, may well be the difference between victory and defeat. Fundraise more so it doesnt hurt the pocket as much to bowl...but leave Rachuig as it is thanks.

Paul Trotter
 
Everyone knows that teams dont go away just to 'make up the numbers' or lose. They go away to win. And winning no matter what sport or event etc comes at a cost. Whether that be a cost in terms of money of whether that be an individual cost of bowling only a few games, its not important.

Teams take 7 members of which the best 5 should be selected per game. If this means some people get to bowl every game and others hardly any, so be it everyone in that team has contributed in some form or another. Support for your fellow man (or woman) is just as important as the bowling itself.

It sounds like those that think there should be a minimum no. of games believe it is a right to go away and bowl. I dont agree. Representing your state/territory/country is and always will be a privilege. Those that miss out on bowling a high number of games should aspire to improve their game so that the next time they go away they will be given the opportunity to bowl.

Having said that I've not yet bowled in Rachuig so I could be disillusioned in my thoughts.

Cheers, Robert
 
Bobba what u have said is great, and perhaps this could also be said about shield.

Being a shield bowler who has not gotten more then 10 games the past 3 years, it has made me aspire to improving my game. Although i am not a junior now i, i can sit back and say that i have enjoyed my shield carrer.

This year i bowled 9 games, i dont think i bowled that bad but all the other boys bowled fantastic and it payed off, we won. I realised that if any of us did not perform well, we would be sat out and when we were sat out, it was hard to get back in. I remember being sat out and the boys bowling 2 games in a row over 1100, how can u get back into a line-up that does that?

I think that the fundraising idea is the best way to go, because you do need 7 bowlers, what happens if someone gets injured? I agree Paul when he said about bowling fantastic and having to sit out for someone who will probably lose. Minimum games i dont think would be a good way to go.

cheers

brad Tanner
 
bobba what you said about it being a privilege to represent your state/territory/country is a very valid point. just being there, supporting your team members and soaking in the atmosphere of such a prestigious event should be a highlight of the trip. i have experience from shield, where fellow team members have sat out, and had dummy spits about not bowling. they should be enjoying the moment with their team.

just my opinion

matt kanafa
 
Bowling minimum games should be kept in events such as Junior Country Cup (in Vic. anyway), it is at this stage of a bowlers development that we do not want them to get disillusioned with the sport, also this is when they are more easily disapointed.
Rachuig and DeVeer are National events and should be treated as such whilst competing in them then and also aftrwards in threads such as this and another that is happening at the moment.
As with many other national sports they have a bench, from which players are interchanged whether it be for injury, poor performance, poor attitude or just simply for a rest. Maybe this could be a solution or viewed that way now. Also every one maybe could pay the full lineage for 18 games then be refunded for the games they don't bowl even though this is a fairly minor part of the costing for this event.

Just remember it is a team game and the team also includes managers and coaches. Coaches I feel should be down on the practice lanes when they are on trying to work out the problems of those not bowling, if they have a problem that is, just incase someone else does not perform too well.
I did notice that the coaches rarely leave the players area and venture down to the practice lanes. Odd isn't it.

Rob

Rob
 
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