Pin Position

I'm curious to find out about ball pin positioning
When I got the last reactive ball drilled it was drilled with the pin kicked off to the right of the hole for the forth finger.
I was told it was drilled for maximum hooking.
While watching the world masters I noticed all the bowlers had the pin either in the center of the grip or just above the finger holes in the center of the 2.
Can some explain
Is there a web site that explains drill patterns?
 
what iv been taught is wherever the pin position is it indicates length. i have a original inferno drilled with the pin just to the right of my right ring finger and it gives controllable hook with nice length. my sr300 is drilled with the pin just above my fingers in the middle, and gives the ball long length. hope this helps if im correct in saying this
 
Well if you look at the ebonite site in the tech tips there is a good write up which explains alot about various different things to do with the dynamics of a ball...

But the further away from your PAP your pin is the less aggressive and most times pin below the fingers gives an early roll pin above the fingers gives length...

But read the tech tips on the ebonite site they are fairly easy to understand.
 
This could be a long post.... we'll play it by ear.

First, SURFACE SURFACE SURFACE! This is more important than any layout option. Please don't be afraid to change the surface on a bowling ball if its not currently reaching its scoring potential. Surface is number 1. Core design is number 2. Then comes layout. Having said that, here we go.

PAP.
Positive axis point.
Every bowler has their own unique attribute in their game called a positive axis point. This measurement is directly related to our release point and angle. It is the result of the diametre of our track, as well as the amount of tilt our delivery has.

There are 4 ways (that I can think of off the top of my head) to locate ones pap.

The first way is not super accurate, but it gets the job done if you don't have time to get onto the lane. It basically rules out extreme PAP co-ordinates for the bowler. From the existing Track markings on the ball, trace the markings closest to the fingers around the ball. Line up a quarter scale (or if you have access to one, an armadillo) with this marking and trace a line 6 3/4 through grip centre. The point at 6 3/4 is your pap.

The next way is a little more accurate, and the only step different is getting the bowler to throw a non flaring ball down the lane, through the middle of the lane, using their normal release. Treat the next few steps as above, tracing the line, and measuring 6 3/4 through grip centre. You can also place the ball on a spinner, and angle the previously drawn line so when rotating, the line doesn't move up or down (horizontally) and place a wax pencil on the top of the ball, and where it marks is your pap.

Heres method number 3: (Too lazy to explain it all, video says it all :D)
http://www.brunsnick.com/positive_axis_point.html

If you want the most accurate way, and the way I use when we have access to a lane, is to get the bowler to throw the non flaring ball down the middle as before, mark the line and PAP on a spinner as above. We then place a small white piece of tape on this point, and get the bowler to throw the ball again. If we have correctly located our positive axis point, the tape won't move for the first few feet of the lane.

Now onto pin position. Because I couldn't be bothered re-typing all this, I acutally pinched this part from www.ballreviews.com in the FAQ section.

AFFECT OF PIN PLACMENT
Pin to PAP distance:
0" - minimum flare potential, core is in it's most stable position, earliest roll with smoothest arc.
1 1/8" - 1/3 of flare potential, stable core position, earlier roll with smooth arc.
2 1/4" - 2/3 of flare potential, semi stable core position, early roll with strong arc.
3 3/8" - max flare potential, most unstable core position, medium length with the most hook potential.
4 1/2" - 2/3 of flare potential, semi stable core position, late roll with flip/arc reaction.
5 5/8" - 1/3 of flare potential, stable core position, later roll with a flip reaction.
6 3/4" - minimum flare potential, stable core position, latest roll with strongest flip.
Remember : These reaction charcteristics are all relative to the conditions they are being used on and may not perform as expected due to burning up too early or not setting up early enough.
Pin to grip center (GC) distance: The higher the pin above grip center the more lenght you will get fot given pin to PAP distance. The placement in relation to GC also affects where the tracks of track flare intersect (bow tie). Higher pin = Higher intersection. For this reason they suggest high trackers place the pin higher above GC to reduce the risk of flaring over the finger holes.

Anything with a pin placement greater than 6 3/4 from the PAP risks flaring backwards, and you may hit every hole on the ball.

Terminology like; "Pin at 1-30", "pin above bridge" "Pin to the right of the ring finger" "negative pin" and "kill drill" are outdated, and while most good drillers will understand the terminology, it really gives little to no relevance in describing the drill for the individual bowler, because none of them take into account the bowlers PAP.

A ball can only do what the core will allow it to do. If the core is designed by nature to be low flaring (Blue Green Centaur is the ball that comes to mind straight away) (read have a LOW Differential) no amount of leveraging will get it to flare as much as something with extremely high flare potential (high differential) like an Immortal Solid.

With high differential cores, we have the extreme risk of overflaring (read burning up) with the use of super strong layouts. This brings back to the original observation

"While watching the world masters I noticed all the bowlers had the pin either in the center of the grip or just above the finger holes in the center of the 2."

This is basically reffering to the pin being furthur away from the PAP than something with the pin "to the right of the ring finger"

Most world class bowlers have enough revs to create enough flare and hook potential on their own, without the use of super strong layouts. They also know the risk of over flaring on High Differential balls, and since MOST high performance balls these days have high differential, they are avoiding this problem.

You also run the risk on low differential balls to have the ball not flare enough. This can create squirty ball reaction, as the ball is continuously rolling over the same oil line as the previous "Rev" so its ability to generate friction is hampered.

Pin positions should NOT be selected to allow us to throw lots and lots of strikes. Stringing should come from TECHNIQUE.

Pin positions should be decided to allow the bowler to stay in play for as long as possible, and when they miss, they leave something they can spare. We use pin height to help the bowler score on the different lengths of patterns, and pin to pap to allow a bowler to play the best part of the lane for that condition.

A quick tip: As a general rule of thumb, place the pin higher when the pattern is shorter, and place the pin lower when the pattern is longer. This allows a bowler to gain RECOVERY and sit on shorter patterns, and gain hold, pocket penetration and entry angle on longer patterns. I know we can all score with the opposite of this rule, but if you use this ruling on your gear, you WILL find you will match up more often than not.

I find a massive amount of bowlers these days OVERUSE strong pin positions. Placing a pin to pap distance shorter than 4.5-5 should ONLY be used to increase midlane and allow a bowler a little more area to play inside an OOB. If you find a 4.5 or 5 inch pin position doesnt give you enough flare to get into a roll, add a flare increasing XH, or switch to a higher differential bowling ball. Longer pin to paps give the bowler more energy at the break, providing a more consistent move at the breakpoint. We also all but avoid common problems with high performance balls today like overflaring.

I almost hear strokers crying from here:

"How will I get my ball to hook without a leverage pin"

My reply, is who needs to hook the lane to score? generate entry angle and roll at the breakpoint, and the energy your ball has saved with the weaker pin placement will destroy the pocket.

One can score higher, get more consistent breakpoints, leave more makable spares and get better results using these basic, easy to remember rules.

After saying all this, there are other variables, (like balance hole location, depth, size and pitch, mass bias location etc etc...) and i'm sure due to the length of this post, you don't want me to add these in yet.

If you go to a good ball driller, they can take all this into consideration when deciding a layout on your next purchase.

Enjoy!
 
Thanks Tonx I really couldn't be stuffed writing a huge post like you have just done so I was very brief and suggested a site which explains a bit of it...

Where do you find the time to post such things when your soooo busy organizing VSS hehehe...
 
tonx i would like to know where this 6 3/4 came from for the pap???????
never heard of it like to know where you got it from.?????????????????
 
tonx i would like to know where this 6 3/4 came from for the pap???????
never heard of it like to know where you got it from.?????????????????

If you want the most accurate way, and the way I use when we have access to a lane, is to get the bowler to throw the non flaring ball down the middle as before, mark the line and PAP on a spinner as above. We then place a small white piece of tape on this point, and get the bowler to throw the ball again. If we have correctly located our positive axis point, the tape won't move for the first few feet of the lane.

Tonx, will this read out 6 3/4 when you perform this method? I dont think so. Aren't you suppose to measure from Grip center and not the track?

Leo
 
I am assuming you guys are reffering to
The first way is not super accurate, but it gets the job done if you don't have time to get onto the lane. It basically rules out extreme PAP co-ordinates for the bowler. From the existing Track markings on the ball, trace the markings closest to the fingers around the ball. Line up a quarter scale (or if you have access to one, an armadillo) with this marking and trace a line 6 3/4 through grip centre. The point at 6 3/4 is your pap.

Leo, It is definately 6 3/4 through grip centre perpendicular to track. If you measured from Grip Centre, your pap would always be 6 3/4 over....

The measurement comes back to:
6 3/4" - minimum flare potential, stable core position, latest roll with strongest flip.

As you guys should know, the most stable core positions are Pin Axis and Pin in track. 6 3/4 pin to pap is pin in track. (Once we go past 6 3/4 away from PAP with our pin, we risk reversing the balls flare path.) This allows us to draw the conclusion that our track is approximately 6 3/4 from our pap. Drawing the line perpendicular from the original flare line gives us the up measurement.

It basically does the same thing as an armadillo, without the extra cost involved in purchasing one. If you have an armadillo, you don't need to measure 6 3/4 through, because the measurement is already built in :D

Hope this helps :D
 
6 3/4 pin to pap is pin in track. (Once we go past 6 3/4 away from PAP with our pin, we risk reversing the balls flare path.) This allows us to draw the conclusion that our track is approximately 6 3/4 from our pap.

Tonx, this is not true except for a full roller track. The 6 3/4" measurement is simply 90 degrees around the ball, which places the core at 90 degrees to the initial spin axis. A ball will only track here with zero axis tilt, ie a full roller. For someone throwing a spinner, it could be as much as 8 or 9 inches from PAP to the track.
 
Hmmm, i thought spinners had PAP's about 3 inches from grip center and the 6 3/4" track to pap distance applied to everyone?
 
I'm no expert on this but I'm pretty sure Robbie is spot on about the spinners... The track size depending on how much tilt the spinner produces is marginly smaller then the medium tilt players. Therefore giving a larger distance from track to PAP...
 
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